Looking for Purest way to get Acoustic Tracks.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Somelsewhere
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I hear you, SSGlen, and I my experience is that most preamps in the OP's price range do a lot better if you don't ask then for more than about 50db of gain. The MD421 can live with that, and is closest to the working budget. BTW, I think the RE20 is *better* on kick than a D112, but it is also in a whole different price range. The problem is, if I had an RE20, I'd be using it on so many other things, that it would probably never get put up for kick.-Richie
LOL, well, I guess we just gotta get you a handful of RE20s, then :D.

Yeah, I'm shocked at some of the preamp specs on some of the cheaper or smaller interfaces. When I found out the Lexicon Omega (just for an example) barely had enough gain to handle an SM57, let alone an SM7, I was flabbergasted. I'm not attacking Lexicon, which makes some great signal processing stuff, of course; but when you have a preamp that rated at (if I remember right) around 50dB maximum gain, you have wonder what the point is, especially if the last 5-10dB or so starts to get noisy. And then there's the problem that many of the cheaper interfaces don't even publish those specs, so you're swinging blind.

A little off-topic, perhaps, but if you're rated up in the 60s, one could always adjust the gain structure a little, by keeping the preamp gain a bit low; recording at, say, ~ -25 - -30dBFS RMS (give or take) and then make up for it in the mix by just digitally lifting the track level. If the noise is still brought up too high that way, a little downward expansion thresholding down near the noise floor and pushing downward from there can help.

G.
 
All of those points are correct, SouthSide, but we also have to remember what (and who) we're dealing with here. Anybody who could manage a post-production gainstaging issue that complex would also have a preamp that could produce 65db of clean gain. You know, I've never had to use that system with the Avalon! I'm trying to help this guy out, and suggest gear that is within his budget, more or less, and suggest pieces of gear that are mutually compatible. I can't find any specs that will tell me the nominal gain of an H4n, but I wouldn't ask it for 65db, that's for sure.-Richie
 
All of those points are correct, SouthSide, but we also have to remember what (and who) we're dealing with here. Anybody who could manage a post-production gainstaging issue that complex would also have a preamp that could produce 65db of clean gain. You know, I've never had to use that system with the Avalon! I'm trying to help this guy out, and suggest gear that is within his budget, more or less, and suggest pieces of gear that are mutually compatible. I can't find any specs that will tell me the nominal gain of an H4n, but I wouldn't ask it for 65db, that's for sure.-Richie
And those points are all also correct (though I can't comment one way or the other on the H4n as I have no experience or knowledge of it).

Let's also be honest here and say that the majority of newbs are going to experience gain problems and come here with their questions anyway because of the pervasive fallacy out there that they need to record all their tracks "as hot as possible". This will be an issue just as often with their MXL or even their SM57 (or their KSM;) as it will with an LDD, even if the numbers are not as severe. Either way they've got that basic lesson of recording digitally at reasonable analog levels coming to them pretty quickly.

As far as budget, a brand new US 122L, RE20 and XLR mic cable big enough for a dorm room could easily be package dealt with a reasonable sales assistant for $500, and could be done used from eBay for probably even cheaper.

*BUT*, let's not turn this into a "my idea is better than your idea" thing. I'm sure with any of these variations of packages that have been discussed here that Some is going to come out OK.

My only real point was that it's nice to see LDDs get their props on this forum for a change. The whole simplistic idea that "condenser" automatically means "better" just wears on my psyche after a while as yet another one of those newb fallacies right up there with 'record as hot as possible".

G.
 
As far as budget, a brand new US 122L, RE20 and XLR mic cable big enough for a dorm room could easily be package dealt with a reasonable sales assistant for $500, and could be done used from eBay for probably even cheaper.
G.

I agree completely. That's why I tried to present the interface solution, because that is how most people do it. It wasn't until recently that the miniaturized card recorder/interface has become a viable option. I do however, believe that the Tascam unit you referenced above is most likely just as incapable of dealing with an SM7 as every other cheap interface in the world, including the unit I recommended. There are a few outboard preamps within the price range that can do it-DMP3, for example. If I wanted to use a mic like RE20 or SM7, on a budget, I'd use that and an upgraded soundcard. While I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that a condenser is *not* better than a dynamic, the limited clean gain of the preamps in most interfaces has a tendency to work well with cheap condensers, and hotter dynamics. That's one of the reasons I still have an AKG D3800 tripower around. (Hmmm- I'll have to try that through the H4n- I haven't tried that).

The point is- you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. The real question is-how do you build a basic recording rig for $500? No matter how you do it, it's not going to be Abbey Road. Preamps and mics, everything, is entry level. I understand the attraction of a mic like RE20, SM7, or MD421. It's a chance to use a mic that is found in every big-name studio on earth. Ha! it's *not* entry level! Your selection, in it's own way, is every bit as valid as mine. However, I do believe the sound-of-dorm-room issue will rear it's ugly head early on, no matter what kind of gear he uses, and if he has the ability to move to a Music Department practice room or radio broadcast room (some universities even have real studios), portability will be a big plus. Yeah, you could haul a DMP-3 around, no problem, it's small. But most laptops won't accomodate real sound cards. Unfortunately, I don't know of a USB interface in the entry-level price range that can produce the gain required by large diaphragm dynamics. So you're back to a desktop, which can take a real souncard. You get to use your cool dynamic, but you lose portability. That's why I like MD421, because it can live with less gain, which will produce less noise. I've used it with a Mobilepre, and they got along pretty well.

I'm also of the general opinion that if we start with entry level gear, it's good to have enough different toys to learn the basics. Here's where we agree, for sure- A dynamic mic is perhaps the most basic tool of a tracking engineer. A stereo pair and a cardioid condenser are almost as basic. SSGlen and I both know that by the day Somelsewhere sees a gold-pressed master in duplication, he will have spent quite a bit more than $500. I think that would cover the copyright fees and mechanical royalties for my first CD. Like him, I just want Somelsewhere to have the tools to learn basic tracking and mixing. Nope, no "my idea is better than yours" here. In fact, I said up front that my version was not the mainstream solution. I think it is cutting edge, though. The micro-recorder is slowly coming of age. I can't wait to see a $3000+ Great River/Microtech Gefell version of the H4n, 10 years or so from now.

Oh yeah- and that said, I don't know what your major is, Somelsewhere, but if you haven't signed up for any yet, you should consider some 101 level music courses, or higher, if you have the prerequisites. Join the choir. Not only will it improve singing and sightreading, but is a great way to meet some of the best singers on the campus, of both genders. You'd be surprised how many of them do Pop/Rock/Reggae/Emo/Ska,Blues/R&B/Folk/Country or whatever, also. Music theory doesn't hurt (much), really.

The only other really good advice I can give is to always think about the signal chain in reverse. It's not about the end. It's about the beginning. It starts with the song. Then the performance, the instrument, the room, the mic(s), the cables, the preamp(s), the A-D conversion (if any), the recorder/software, the mixing, FX, dynamic processing, mastering, duplication, packaging. Give me a good song, performed well, on a good instrument, in a good room, with cheap mics and pres into shareware, well mixed, and it will always sound better than a bad source, recorded in a cruddy room, with world class gear. Then, mixing and mastering will make or break it. In the end, Somelsewhere, before you see a finished album, you will have spent more time worrying about where to put the mics than you did on what mics they were.
 
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wow, I feel like this place is a virtual mountaintop where sound-engineer monks give sage-like, if not cryptic advice.
Richard, just watching you and Glen debate with each other about equipment was pretty educational.

The reason I would prefer a condensor isn't because I'm going off some disillusioned stereotype, it's only because in my personal experience, working with my acoustic guitar, I found the sound I got with a condesor mic was vastly more present and emotional than that of a dynamic. Whether I just had a inferior dynamic mic is possible, but it left an impression upon that for acoustic sound, which is a big part of what I'm trying to do, I should use a condensor mic.

As for the dormroom situation, I have no intention whatsoever of doing my "real recording" there, whatever recording I would do there would be mostly compositional. There is the option of going to the music department, as well as my sister's house just off-campus, as she offered to allow me some space.

So my thing is, yes, I understand I'm not going to get a professional quality sound on my budget. But I just don't want amateurish noise behind each track, layering my songs into mush.
Hence this post looking for this elusive "purity".

And now you guys tell that if I get a good mic like the KSM, that it will simply overpower an interface like the Tascam or H4n, inducing noise?
That is so not optimal, and kinda leaves me at square one.
But although I am a newb in knowledge, I am not one in practice and habit. (or so I'd like to think)
I'm looking to make an acoustic album, not Chinese Democracy.
I will not try to record "hot" and crank up my interfaces gain, I find that makes tracks overbearing and really uncooperative with each other.
An album like Sufjan Stevens "seven swans" is what I'm after, the sound isn't loud, hell, it's a little removed, and for me, that just makes me want to listen harder.

So, Glen, will I be safe (noise-wise) to use a KSM with the Tascam interface to record, as long as I keep the levels down initially?
 
Any "debate" Richie and I have at this point is fairly esoteric stuff; my read is that we are in 99% agreement on what each of us has to say here. We just went a bit OT with some details. I wouldn't get too distracted by too much of the stuff.

The KSM27 has very admirable and very forgiving specs, and with a sensitivity of -37dB should be no issue for any worthwhile interface - including the Tascam - to handle at decent levels. Electrically, there is not a matching problem with that or any other of it's specs that I can see like there can be with LDDs as we described earlier. So in that way, it passes the test just fine. It also has a very low self-noise specification, meaning it is a pretty quiet mic in that regard.

How good will it sound and how well will you would like it's sound for your application is something I have no way to predict. I've not used that specific mic myself, so I have no insight to offer there as to where it works well or not. I'm with Rich that I've use the KSM44 and found it to be a decent mic, but that's not a hugely reliable indicator, any more than an SM7 is an indicator of what an SM57 sounds like.

G.
 
Yo Somelsewhere! Nonsense. We are dirty holy hermits sitting on a dung heap, eating macrobiotic rice, and dispensing the most confusing info possible. You did misunderstand one thing. A condenser won't "overpower" anything, and The KSM27 is unlikely to produce much noise. What condensers often do is accurately record the noise that is already there. That is an unfortunate byproduct of the detail you are looking for on that acoustic. The ability to record beautiful detail comes with the tendency to record bad detail as well.
Dynamics can do that too. My primary concern with an *initial* investment in a high-end dynamic, is that dynamics, especially the large diaphragm models favored by the big studios, such as RE20 and SM7, produce a very weak signal by their design, which requires you to crank up the preamp quite a bit. When you do this with a $2000 preamp, it is not a problem. When you do it with a $50 preamp, it is. The *preamp*, not the mic, then tends to produce noise, something that you (and everybody else) wants to avoid, as much as possible. So there are noise pitfalls everywhere. With a dynamic, you may reduce the background noise problem and increase the preamp noise problem.

SSGlen's point is that many people make this worse by trying to record at the highest level possible, just before clipping, and that if they recorded at a lower level, and then boosted the volume digitally, in the computer, they could get acceptable end-volume levels without cranking the preamp as much. I think a condenser will work fine, and is a basic tool. A Dynamic will also work fine, and is a basic tool. So my suggestion is to get an entry level condenser and a cheap proven dynamic initially, and consider an upgrade to the dynamic at a later point in time. I targeted the Sennheiser MD421 because it is a great mic, used in almost every major studio on Earth, but costs less than most of the other badass dynamics, and requires a little less gain from the preamp than an SM7 or RE20. It has also been around for years, so it is possible to find them used at an attractive price.

SSGlen and I aren't really debating- I think there's a fair amount of respect there. We are both wrestling with the same issue. What's the most effective way to build a recording rig to capture real acoustic sound for $500? Everything is a compromise- Sound quality, noise floor, portability, reliability, complexity, expandability, versatility, and perhaps most importantly (to me, anyway) is- will the rig be a good learning tool to experiment, and learn the basics of recording? In order to get something, you have to give something. The DMP-3 and soundcard option gives you a better preamp. You lose versatility, portability, and the stereo condenser mics that come with the H4n. That's not better, or worse. It's just a choice. The better preamp would make it possible to use the higher end dynamics, producing more gain with less noise.

Understand this- I'm *not* a recording engineer. I'm a singer-songwriter who has done what you want to do. I can't dazzle you with technobabble, because I don't really understand electronics very well. I am a pretty good hack, though. I've been making Rock and Roll equipment work for 40 years. I started with the same desires as you, and before I was done, I had invested the price of a new Lexus. And- I'd do it again, in a heartbeat. I have had all the fun of learning to be a tracking engineer and building a music playroom for adults. As I said above, before you are done, you will have spent a lot more money than you planned. What I think is important now is to get you some basic learning tools, so you can start the fairly involved process of learning how to make a good album.-Richie
 
Thanks guys.
The good thing about your advice is that it is more than applicable, I'll let you know the results in the coming weeks,
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the info,
later'
 
As a relative newb (a yearish seriously trying to record myself) there are a few things that I wish I knew when I started

1) Just because something has PRO in the product name doesn't make it so.
2) Probably the biggest initial quality jump you are going to get is to go with an audio interface instead of the computers onboard sound card, an AI is designed to record the converters are so much better and it has the right kind of plugs for various mic and instrument cables
3) A great mic though a sh!tty preamp/converters doesn't sound better (and may sound worse) than an average mic through an average preamp/converters
4) $500 bucks worth of gear sounds like $500 bucks of gear but ebay can help you to stretch it.
5) the best gear in the world in a bad room nets you a great recording of terrible sound. The importance of room treatment cannot be stressed enough.
6) monitoring and mixing on PC speakers is not a great idea
7) monitoring and mixing on headphones is a terrible idea (get proper speakers or monitors because you can't mix it if you cant hear it)
8) computers can be really tweaky and are not designed for audio out of the box (unless you buy from an audio pc maker. If you are running a PC download a DSP latency checker from here http://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml if this is going into the red you will probably have problems. Also go here http://www.blackviper.com/ to figure out how to streamline the machine as much as possible
9) figure out what you want and need before you start to buy.For example: If you will always be a one man band you will probably never need 8 or more XLS inputs (unless you are a drummer) spend as much as you can on 2 inputs (for stereo micing) on which is exactly what you need to try and avoid having to upgrade almost immediately because you bought 8 terrible channels of pres and converters instead of 2 reasonably good ones
10) reading is good but nothing beats practicing both your recording technique and musicianship. Get the source as good as you can and the gear/effects proccessors/ mastering bundles become less a factor in a good result.
 
As a relative newb (a yearish seriously trying to record myself) there are a few things that I wish I knew when I started

1) Just because something has PRO in the product name doesn't make it so.
2) Probably the biggest initial quality jump you are going to get is to go with an audio interface instead of the computers onboard sound card, an AI is designed to record the converters are so much better and it has the right kind of plugs for various mic and instrument cables
3) A great mic though a sh!tty preamp/converters doesn't sound better (and may sound worse) than an average mic through an average preamp/converters
4) $500 bucks worth of gear sounds like $500 bucks of gear but ebay can help you to stretch it.
5) the best gear in the world in a bad room nets you a great recording of terrible sound. The importance of room treatment cannot be stressed enough.
6) monitoring and mixing on PC speakers is not a great idea
7) monitoring and mixing on headphones is a terrible idea (get proper speakers or monitors because you can't mix it if you cant hear it)
8) computers can be really tweaky and are not designed for audio out of the box (unless you buy from an audio pc maker. If you are running a PC download a DSP latency checker from here http://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml if this is going into the red you will probably have problems. Also go here http://www.blackviper.com/ to figure out how to streamline the machine as much as possible
9) figure out what you want and need before you start to buy.For example: If you will always be a one man band you will probably never need 8 or more XLS inputs (unless you are a drummer) spend as much as you can on 2 inputs (for stereo micing) on which is exactly what you need to try and avoid having to upgrade almost immediately because you bought 8 terrible channels of pres and converters instead of 2 reasonably good ones
10) reading is good but nothing beats practicing both your recording technique and musicianship. Get the source as good as you can and the gear/effects proccessors/ mastering bundles become less a factor in a good result.

Word-Richie
 
Nothing much to add here, save that this thread has turned into a very enjoyable read. :yesway:
 
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