Looking for advice on vocal technique, recording and mixing

[Edhie]

Yes, all of it at the same time!
Sorry guys, I know your ears must be tired and I would love to have contributed something to anything else before writing this, but I don't feel like there is much I can bring to the table - yet.

I am a novice singer, have been taking a few lessons, working on a couple things. I am really really motivated to work hard and improve what I can. I can usually hear when I am off-pitch, rhythm varies, and obviously some stuff to work on in breathing, support and range.

Singing lessons do not come cheap so I have started recording myself at home, in order to listen back to it and see what I am doing right/wrong.

Problem: it seems to me that I sound even worse recorded than live. Obviously it's hard to judge, because I don't hear myself live, but people who hear me don't seem to cringe as much as I do when I listen back to the recordings.

Here is a recording of a song that is very difficult for me. The higher note I have hit for the first time in my life when recording the song, and I don't speak Japanese so it makes it a whole different kind of messy. This is by far the worst of all the songs I tried, so I am thinking it will be the best to showcase my flaws so that you can ruthlessly pinpoint them Aesthetes, turn back now!



The recording is essentially straight out of computer, only some compression to make it slightly less terrible.

I wondered if you'd care to give me your opinion on what is wrong with it and on which levels?

• Always happy for singing technique advice
• Would love recording technique advice
• If anyone has any idea how to EQ this... thing, I would be eternally grateful. Whatever I attempted just made it worse.

Here is what I know, all the rest I would love to learn:

• Some bits are off-pitch (I don't seem to be able to hear myself properly with the headset. I don't usually have pitch problems otherwise, or at least I can hear them and correct them. Not so when recording.)
• The highest notes sound shrill. The high D# IS def. shrill, but some of them are not as shrill IRL. I think I have no clue as to how to use my mic. EDIT: It's a Rode condenser mic that I connect to a Focusrite Scarlett interface.
• And that's it! Please, help !!

 

[BroKen_H]

Okay, things I notice:
You have a pleasing voice. And thank you for including the music...so many do an acapella and expect people to magically know how the notes should sound.

You need more diaphragm control. Not all the high notes, and not the highest of the notes you hit, but some of the high notes were very undercut by lack of air. A lot of your phrases suffered the same fate. How to explain what I'm hearing is the problem...the last word of your phrases is often REALLY short, to the point of chopped off. Some phrases seem like you can only go two notes without breathing. It should be smooth and drawn out. I hope that makes sense.

Most of your intervals were quite good (from note to note). Done without sliding.

Your speaking voice needs more power (also an air issue).

Things I recommend:
Sometimes pitchiness is a sign that you're not hearing your own voice adequately. Your pitchiness might be controlled better by singing with one cup off (the headphones) and plugging one ear so you get a direct feed of your own voice (or try cupping and singing into your palm...sometimes, if you sing loudly, this can hurt your ear).

There's a standard walking exercise that I recommend often. I think you will benefit from it in ways you would not expect.
Go for a walk. As you walk, sharply inhale for one step and exhale EVENLY for seven. If you run out of breath at first, it's ok. Just keep trying to get enough in. This will build your intake, stamina, diaphragm and strengthen your head voice (where those high notes come from). Be careful to watch for dizziness as some can actually hyperventilate doing this exercise. Like most exercises, this will take time. You should start to see better control within two weeks, but if you do this daily for several years, you will have very powerful lungs, and great control. I've started doing this again myself this year after having not since 1989...I am starting to get compliments on my singing again.

 

[BroKen_H]

Ah, also as far as recording (tracking): Get a decent condenser microphone...AT2035 comes to mind, but there are many. Run it through an audio interface (bypass your computer's internal sound)[look at Focusrite, Tascam, PreSonus, among others] into almost any DAW (digital audio workstation)...Reaper is highly recommended here for it's price, first, but also because it is amazingly good. Make sure the room you record in sounds good with what you're recording. A large room with good acoustics and reverb, or a small acoustically treated room so you can add your own reverb at mix stage.

AFA mixing. WOW, that's a big area. Firstly, are we talking about vocal over prerecorded track, or are you going to also track other instruments? Read a lot of the stickies on this forum and you'll get a TON of information...but that question will give people an idea how to direct you on mixing.

 

[Edhie]

There's a standard walking exercise that I recommend often. I think you will benefit from it in ways you would not expect.
Go for a walk. As you walk, sharply inhale for one step and exhale EVENLY for seven. If you run out of breath at first, it's ok. Just keep trying to get enough in. This will build your intake, stamina, diaphragm and strengthen your head voice (where those high notes come from). Be careful to watch for dizziness as some can actually hyperventilate doing this exercise. Like most exercises, this will take time. You should start to see better control within two weeks, but if you do this daily for several years, you will have very powerful lungs, and great control. I've started doing this again myself this year after having not since 1989...I am starting to get compliments on my singing again.

Wow. Thank you so much! Both your replies are very very useful. And thank you for being nice about it
My SO is also motivating me to go for runs, I am starting to convince myself I really should do it for a wide set of reasons including this one. My lungs even burn a bit when I sing for a long time

Regarding recording, I have a Rode microphone (NT1 I think?) and a Focusrite Scarlett interface, which are supposed to be rather decent I think, but I am too much of a novice to take proper advantage of them. In particular I seem to struggle with the gain settings for the mic, and moving about to control how much I shout into it.
The other issue, you are very right about that, is room control: I sing in the bedroom which is not ideal. I'll look into what I can improve.
EDIT: Does Logic Pro work as a DAW? Or is it something different altogether?

Lastly re: the mix: my main question at the moment is vocals. I have started reading things about what some frequencies do and how tweaking them can help with certain issues, but the problem is, I have no experience whatsoever in mixing and my ear is not formed at all.
I can definitely tell that tweaking the EQ changes things, but I am not sure what, and not sure if it's good or bad. Then I listen to it all over again and I can tell some issues have been fixed but new issues have appeared (like, I managed to make the highs sound less shrill but the whole thing sounded very muddy afterwards.) That's why I thought I'd try learning by example, through seeing if anyone had suggestions for this particular bit.

Simply put, when it comes to mixing I know that I know nothing, and I have no idea what to learn first Very willing to take anything on board though!

 

[BroKen_H]

The Rode and Scarlett are great. No problems there. What I usually do when I'm setting the volume on my mike is to scream at the mike. Make sure there's no clipping (red light flashes). When I sing, there's no way it will clip. In the digital domain, getting the signal in is fine. Noise floor is low enough that if you are at -12 to -18 that is ideal, but signals down to -30 can be boosted up without noticeable noise.

I have to go right now, and won't be back on here for days, so I hope someone else picks this up. Otherwise, I'll see you Wednesday!

Happy recording.

 

[Edhie]

Thank you BroKen_H, that's again very useful advice. I'll try that out when I am back myself (seems like it's a travelling week-end for us lot )

 

[BroKen_H]

Okay, picking up where we left off (funny no one else piped in)...

Yes, Logic is a fine DAW. See Q&A here. Not my DAW, though, so click the link and look for information.
Mixing vocals: Start with .
Should give you some ideas. Be sure to listen in HD.

 

[Edhie]

Another spot-on post, you're precious BroKen_H! I am going to watch the video and see how I can apply it to the song. I will repost another version if I manage to mix it somewhat acceptably...

Yes it seems I might have overwhelmed everyone with my wall of text and my multiple-everything-clumped-together-in-one question. However I feel like I'm getting quite a bit from your replies already! Much appreciated, thank you.

Of course if anyone else wants to pitch in, I'm always happy about more feedback/advice/tips&tricks

 

[BroKen_H]

Glad to be of service.

 

[Edhie]

Ok, *drumroll*
I have tried applying some of the mixing advice I found, in your video and in other places. It does make a difference, however I'm not sure whether that's a good or a bad thing?
I have added EQ and a bit of reverb and played with gain a bit.
I do feel that the voice can be heard more - which also makes the off-pitch bits more obvious..... I really need to fix that. But I also get the feeling it opens it up somehow?
I would love to read some thoughts on whether it sounds better/not better/partly better.



This song is doing my head in I might need to switch onto something else and come back to it later...

 

[Edhie]

Sorry, double post!

 

[BroKen_H]

Yes! I was afraid (before listening) that you'd do the newb thing and grab the reverb knob and push it too far. You did very well. Reverb is to accentuate...and you did that very well.
Honestly, this barely sounds like the original. Your speaking voice is audible (good job). Try applying a sheen to the vocal (add 1-2dB on an 8-12k shelf) then cut a bit around 1-1.5k (just on the spoken parts). You'll need to learn how to automate your eq to accomplish this (or parallel the track and cut out all but the spoken on one and all the spoken on the other...)
Only nit would be that I can def hear the room you're in when you back off the mike for the high notes.
Give yourself another week or so with the breathing exercises and try retracking your vocal. Let's see if this is paying off.

 

[Edhie]

Oh, yay! Very happy to read you approve of the mix.
Yes I was wary of putting too much reverb, as I don't much enjoy the "singing from inside an aquarium" sound

When you say that the room can be heard, does that mean that there is noise, or that there is bad reverb from the shape of the room? (I would guess the latter :/ If so I reckon I can only fix it by finding a better room...)

Well well I am going to let it all simmer, will keep doing the exercise and will try retracking in a couple of days! We'll see how it goes. If I manage to improve a bit, I'll repost an update here

I'd like to reiterate my thanks for your help BroKen_H, I am very very grateful that you took the time to listen to my attempts (not once but twice!) and to give me such in-depth feedback on them.

 

[BroKen_H]

Yes, there's a distinct flutter echo to your room. Clap hard and you'll hear it.
The good news: It's not necessarily time to pack up and move. You can defeat flutter with a few well placed traps. Sometimes with just a ceiling cloud or two.
Do you play any instruments?

 

[river deep]

Hey, great end result, little flaws included

The last mix sounds decent. The only issue I can tell is that, since it's a pre-recorded track you're using, the 2 sources (your vocals and the music track) seem less unified or cohesive. But that's what mixing can fix to some degree. I bet things will sound even better when you manage to record/find a different music track.

As for the room...the goal is often to eliminate the room for an unaffected vocal recording. There's cheap ways of building yourself a vocal booth, including using a closet. Look into it.

Again, your voice is good.

 

[BroKen_H]

Oh dear. Closet horror stories abound. It is sometimes okay to line a walk-in closet with lots of sweaters, but correctly treating a room is a much better result. See the forum on Studio Building and Acoustic Treatment for answers. You can usually do an acceptable job treating a room for just a few hundred $$ if you're handy (or know someone who is).

 

[Edhie]

Uh-huh, looks like a missed a couple posts here Thank you for keeping this thread alive and for your precious feedback, guys!

Yes, there's a distinct flutter echo to your room. Clap hard and you'll hear it.
The good news: It's not necessarily time to pack up and move. You can defeat flutter with a few well placed traps. Sometimes with just a ceiling cloud or two.
Do you play any instruments?

Hmmm, I am a very bad guitar student, does that count?
The echo makes total sense, the room is reasonably large, doesn't have a lot of furniture and there isn't much there that would be dampening the soundwaves I am keen on any tips you might have to control that to some extent!

Hey, great end result, little flaws included

Thank you soooo much for taking the time to listen, and giving such a nice feedback

The only issue I can tell is that, since it's a pre-recorded track you're using, the 2 sources (your vocals and the music track) seem less unified or cohesive. But that's what mixing can fix to some degree.

Yes, the problem is that I am using this sort of karaoke backing tracks that you can find online, and I am not sure at all how to make the voice sound more part of the music I am a total newb at mixing, even more so than at singing. Thanks to BroKen_H I understand a bit better how EQ works, and I seem to be getting the gist of Compression and Reverb, but all the rest is a total mystery to me...

Also BroKen_H, I have been doing the exercise you advised, and I thought I'd try to retrack the song, but I reckon I have gotten tired of it or something, so when I went at it, I was all constricted and sounded like a dying chicken on the chorus So I think I'll leave it aside for a little bit longer, so that I can come back to it with fresher folds

However since I still wanted to have a bit of fun and track my progress or lack thereof, I went ahead and recorded "Sweet Child O' Mine". I used the exact same treatment as on the second version of Endless Rain: compression, same EQ, a bit of reverb.

I know I have already imposed myself A LOT on your ears, but if you have the chance to give it a go, I would love to hear what you think. I am much happier about it than about Endless Rain - am I right? Or am I starting to suffer from delusions ?

NB: I am having a bit of fun in the "where do we go" part at the end, fooling around with ranges and vowel shapes, I hope it still sounds decent xD At least the pitch seems fine to me.

Here it is:

 

[BroKen_H]

First rule of playing professionally. If you're not sick of it, your not ready to perform it...that's humor, but it's close to the truth. You've got to break through the problems you have with older songs. Some day someone will want to hear a song you sing for the 10,000th time and you'll want to give it all you can.

Anyway, Sweet Child...
I can hear the exercise paying off already. You're holding out the notes. Decent (still needs a little work) vibrato control.
You have some trouble getting from T to L. From Sweet to Love is hard for your mouth to work with. Probably something you'll need to put a lot of effort into. Push yourself.
You've also got some pitch issues still. But that's pretty normal. You'll overcome those with time. Some of your glissandos (sliding from note to note) are quite good. You keep your pressure well.
A lot of professional singers (not pop, but actual singers) take several takes to get the best tracks. Very few can walk into studio and sing perfectly into the mike on cue.
The final note (although not great on pitch or hold) was higher than you sang in the first tune, and QUITE A BIT stronger. Very proud.

The reason I asked if you played an instrument. It will help you in the next phase. Especially now that you have something worth listening to, and you can hear your own errors (I'm sure you don't need anyone to point them out). Find those areas where you are weakest. Certain notes. Certain intervals. Play them on your guitar and then sing them. Over and over until they are comfortable. You'll get this. After you're comfortable. Record the exercise and listen back. When you're ears hear what you want on a recording. You've got it!

Keep up the good work. You've got a good voice with a few problems. You will need a coach (or someone beside me) to get you through the nasal tone you are generating. There's a bit of your nasal structure that's not opening up that needs a "present" person. Not something I can "hear" to fix. But I will say this. Concentrate on singing from your belly. Pull all the air down and use the diaphragm to push. You are doing so well. Wish I could be there to actually see how you're singing...

will tell you if I'm right about the next problem. (you'll need a mirror)

 

[Edhie]

First rule of playing professionally. If you're not sick of it, your not ready to perform it...

Haha, fair enough. I will definitely come back to that song, I just want to preserve the pleasure I take in singing by mixing and matching things a little bit. But you are right and I am no quitter, I WILL manage to conquer Endless Rain, if not right now then soon

You have some trouble getting from T to L. From Sweet to Love is hard for your mouth to work with.

Oooh fair enough. I'll look (listen?) into it!

The final note (although not great on pitch or hold) was higher than you sang in the first tune, and QUITE A BIT stronger. Very proud.

I am glad that note came out well, it was some sort of weird scream in head voice where I had no idea what I was doing but it felt kind of right. However the reason why it is short is because I had to cut it short - my folds were starting to do something very weird, creating some kind of fry at regular intervals, every 10ms or so? I don't know if that's making any sense and if that's a usual issue... Maybe lack of muscular control or tiredness? Hard to diagnose as that's a very unusual note for me.

and you can hear your own errors (I'm sure you don't need anyone to point them out).

Weeeeeeell, actually... No in truth when I let things sit for a couple hours then listen back to them, I can hear some of the issues, but definitely not all of them - ear training is part of the training I guess. So I will always be very grateful when some moments where things go wrong are pointed out to me - such as what you did with the T & L, I don't think I would have realised without you, not right away anyway :/
I am also a bit worried because I think I can hear most of my pitch mistakes but not all of them... Is it because I am getting too used to the sound of my voice? I am usually pretty good at spotting pitch issues in other people/instruments.

There's a bit of your nasal structure that's not opening up

I definitely have issues with a lot of tensions, it would make sense that this is one of them... I do try to sing from the diaphragm and am succeeding more and more at that, but that doesn't solve the problems with constricted throat, or nasal tone, or generally things that have to do with throat and mouth configuration and that I'm not managing very well.
That's also why I am giving Endless Rain a bit of a rest: I am getting frustrated at myself for not singing it properly, which accentuates the tension issues and makes me even worse (vicious circles, here I come!)
I will have a look at the video tomorrow morning and try working with that, I am sure it will be a huge help!

So that was as usual a brilliant post, very useful and a lot of stuff to process and reuse Thank you so much for being so helpful, honest and encouraging!

 

[anoopbal]

I think you would have sung it better if the tempo were a bit faster. The original song is a bit faster (Guns N Roses). Even a 1 bpm makes a difference in my experience. If you have ableton on something, you can fast or slow the tempo of the backing track. So before you sing always check the bpm of the original and your karaoke. Try it and see. Keep up the singing and your drive to learn more!

I usually sing using a backing track so I know how hard it is to get the vocal blend in. It helps to put a compressor in the mix bus. This helps to blend them together.

This is a recent song I did with a karaoke track. I think it blended ok.

View attachment mymasteredsong.mp3