Looking for a 1/4" half track soon...what about these?

[Seeker of Rock]

I'm almost done with my little studio building project, have a new HD24 for tracking (don't flame me....remember my MSR-16S that seems to have the terminal defective Dolby disease) but am looking for a 1/4" mixdown deck. Balanced outs on my 24.8, so I would like to stay +4 and get a balanced in/out machine. I've been looking casually at the BR-20 and a MX5050. How am I doing so far? I've looked for a TASCAM 42 or 52, but they don't seem to come around very frequently unless they are "AS IS", "sounded great the last time I used it 10 years ago", or some other caveat. I'd like to not exceed $500 and would obviously like to spend less, but even a bit more would not kill me if I have to.

 

[FALKEN]

on a stereo deck could you just buy or build into the machine a small device to balance it?

 

[ofajen]

I'm almost done with my little studio building project, have a new HD24 for tracking (don't flame me....remember my MSR-16S that seems to have the terminal defective Dolby disease) but am looking for a 1/4" mixdown deck. Balanced outs on my 24.8, so I would like to stay +4 and get a balanced in/out machine.

I don't see a compelling audio reason to limit yourself only to units with balanced I/O. Unless you're going for a machine with transformer balanced I/O for the "big iron" sound, which I'm all in favor of, but the machines you mention don't qualify, as far as I recall. It's easy to unbalance the outputs of the console. That opens you up to all the rest of the machines.

Just my two cents.

Otto

 

[Beck]

If you want to keep everything balanced the BR-20 is your best bet these days. Though they use XLR and +4, not all the Otaris have both balanced in and out. What kind of console do you have? A lot have balanced ins but not outs.

I’m with Falken on using a simple adaptor.

With short cable runs… less than 20 feet; an unbalanced run to a mastering deck poses no real issues. The TASCAM 32 has been used for decades in some of the finest recording and A/V facilities.

 

[shedshrine]

http://www.ebtechaudio.com/lls-2des.html

These ebtech dealies are mighty handy...

 

[cjacek]

Hey, only 100 bucks for a 2 channel box. Nice find shedshrine

Yeah, pair that up with a TASCAM 32 or 22-2 and Fuggetaboutit!

The 2 recorders you can find easily on the used market. It's a pretty inexpensive proposition.

Word of caution: Use shipping only as a last resort. Local pickup is preferred.

 

[jpmorris]

Just a suggestion, I think the Revox PR99 has balanced I/O, but I'm not sure.

 

[MCI2424]

I'm almost done with my little studio building project, have a new HD24 for tracking (don't flame me....remember my MSR-16S that seems to have the terminal defective Dolby disease) but am looking for a 1/4" mixdown deck. Balanced outs on my 24.8, so I would like to stay +4 and get a balanced in/out machine. I've been looking casually at the BR-20 and a MX5050. How am I doing so far? I've looked for a TASCAM 42 or 52, but they don't seem to come around very frequently unless they are "AS IS", "sounded great the last time I used it 10 years ago", or some other caveat. I'd like to not exceed $500 and would obviously like to spend less, but even a bit more would not kill me if I have to.

Converting your board outputs is the better option considering all balanced equipment converts to unbalanced anyway. Balanced input/outputs only reject hum and noise whithin the cable. Once the signal is received, it is converted to unbalanced within the device. You are going through 1 conversion process unbalancing your board outputs. If you get a deck with balanced inputs, you again are going through 1 conversion process (in the deck). You gain/lose nothing, but as posted above, you can go to other unbalanced equipment easily.

Just be sure to keep cabling short and away from AC lines and you will be fine.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Thanks for the input. The board is a Mackie 8 buss series 24 channel. +4 to -10 is switchable in the channel ins/outs, not sure about the master 2-buss which would be feeding the deck, but I'd rather keep the +4 for about 12' of snake cable to the deck and back if I can. Even though I hear hum doesn't begin until well after that length, I would rather have balanced than not given the option, which I have at this point, in case my setup every changes or I need a longer cabling because of the deck location changing or being isolated if I expand one day or something of the sort. I'm not married to the idea of balanced ins/outs, but I would prefer it.

BR-20 and MX5050 and just two that I've seen and have read to be decent units. Any other suggestions are most definitely welcomed. If I don't go with balanced and use a converter, I guess that opens up the TASCAM 32 which I know is popular round these parts.

 

[technoplayer]

If you have the opportunity to get a bit less "mainstream", I use:

Tascam 35-2: doesn't have the balanced ins/, but does have onboard DBX and an extra head for 4 track playback.

AMPEX 440C: has balanced I/O, and is built like a tank

 

[Herm]

The mackie board will output unbalanced with no adaptors so its not a problem which machine you get. All it takes is a 1/4 inch male cord to what ever your mixdown unit is RCA or what ever.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

techoplayer, I could be wrong but I don't think I will need NR for 2 track at 15 ips, no? Maybe I'm wrong.

Herm, I'm not even going to try and get to the back of the board right now as there is so much shit to dig through, even though I'm looking at the front. I know the 24.8 has switchable ins/outs for channels 1-24, but this will be out from the LR main outs of the board, never to be returned. I'm using the HD24 for the 24 channel to and fro tracking. Are you saying the 2-buss main outs have that switching as well? As I think about it, I guess it really wouldn't matter whether the main out does or not because it is not being returned and it goes out as +4 until it hits the cables and then is reduced to -10db, right?

 

[cjacek]

I could be wrong but I don't think I will need NR for 2 track at 15 ips, no? Maybe I'm wrong.

I would not use any NR for a properly setup half track (2 track) format.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

So balanced vs. unbalanced....basically if I don't go over 15' (or whatever the cutoff point is before hum sets in) of cable from deck location from board location, I can run unbalanced cables without issue, right? But there is obviously a db differnce if I reduce the signal to -10 through the cables to an unbalanced deck, correct? So I just drive the master faders a little harder during mixdown to get the proper levels on the deck, right?
Any advantages of getting a balanced deck and maintaining that +4 level if I have the budget to do so?

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Unless you're going for a machine with transformer balanced I/O for the "big iron" sound, which I'm all in favor of, but the machines you mention don't qualify, as far as I recall.

Otto

Just to know what my options are, and not that I don't trust everyone here because I do, what is the transformer balanced in/out technology and what would it do at the end of the day to a signal/sound on a mixdown recording?

 

[Dr ZEE]

1/4" main mix out holes on top (no shit to dig through there ) of the console are unbalanced (+4 nominal). Main Mix Fader is "the attenuator". You also have record level on the recording deck. Use em'. Don't think, - less headache
Start shopping already, it may take a while (finding any good working machine that is, also it looks like the more you wait, the harder it is and the more you end up paying, prices looks like going up and up) ... ... or - , depending on how you look at it.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

OK, two more questions...
1) If you guys suggest looking at machines with unbalanced ins/outs, I respect your advice to do that...around the $500-$600 or less range, what would be your top three suggestions?

2) Why do they make balanced ins/outs on half track decks if there isn't really an advantage between balanced/unbalanced? In case you have the deck far from the board or in another room using a remote?

 

[MCI2424]

OK, two more questions...
1) If you guys suggest looking at machines with unbalanced ins/outs, I respect your advice to do that...around the $500-$600 or less range, what would be your top three suggestions?

2) Why do they make balanced ins/outs on half track decks if there isn't really an advantage between balanced/unbalanced? In case you have the deck far from the board or in another room using a remote?

Balanced in/outs are used for long run cables in a noisy environment like live stage applications. All equipment converts (inside the unit) to unbalanced anyway. The issue is the cable length which needs higher line drive. If you are using it in a studio for short run applications, unbalanced will work the same as balanced. There is no advantage between the two inside a rack, or from a rack to a mixer etc.

 

[Muckelroy]

Balanced in/outs are used for long run cables in a noisy environment like live stage applications. All equipment converts (inside the unit) to unbalanced anyway. The issue is the cable length which needs higher line drive. If you are using it in a studio for short run applications, unbalanced will work the same as balanced. There is no advantage between the two inside a rack, or from a rack to a mixer etc.

That is, if you don't own a cell phone, and no one within a 10 foot radius of the equipment has a cell phone on.

 

[ofajen]

Just to know what my options are, and not that I don't trust everyone here because I do, what is the transformer balanced in/out technology and what would it do at the end of the day to a signal/sound on a mixdown recording?

The idea is to use a transformer to interface from one signal stage to another. Because there is no wired electrical connection and the output and succeeding input are inductively coupled, you have better isolation between stages. Many mike inputs use transformers, and many input and output stages on older tape decks used transformers. Good transformers are expensive and tend to be big. Transformers also have a characteristic response that affects the sound. I think a significant part of why the playback from my 3M decks sounds better than the input has to do with the processing of input and output transformers. Many transformered outputs can be unbalanced by tying the minus leg to ground, with no loss in signal level.

The transformered I/O came from an age where power transfer mattered and outputs were matched to input loads. We live in a brave new world where low impedance outputs basically provide a voltage signal into high impedance inputs and power transfer isn't necessary, so good results can usually be had without concern for output loading or termination.

Lots of newer balanced gear is "electronically balanced" which may simply mean that the positive leg of the output is multed through an extra opamp (to invert) and then the inverted output is tied to the minus output point. Unbalancing this type of output is done by floating the minus leg (leaving it unconnected) and you will lose signal level (6dB). The transformered stage will have a different sound, the electronically balanced or other non-transformered stages generally having a "cleaner" sound. The Stephens decks, for example, saved a lot of weight and obtained a very lively sound by running unbalanced I/O. Some folks love that sound, while others love the sound of Ampexes, 3Ms, MCIs and others with transformered I/O.

Cheers,

Otto