Live 'staying in tune' problems *grrrrr*

  • Thread starter Thread starter TheRockDoc
  • Start date Start date
=muttley600;2961457]A couple of things jump out from your original post.



Are you expecting to get too much from the tuning of your guitar? I'm not being patronising here, it's just that there is a cathartic moment in most musicians lives when they get to understand the truth about intonation.
Click to expand...


Plus one to that! Have you checked the intonation?? To your playing..
I've got a couple of bandmates that are tuning constantly, and play solos out of tune all the time!!:rolleyes::p
..They have dropped the tuning to B with a Korean Jackson RR with a floyd rose, and without adjusting intonation.:D
 
ggunn said:
I never put a knot in my strings when I install them. I tried it once and it didn't do anything but make the old strings a bitch to get off when it was time to change them.

I have regular old stock tuners on all my guitars; I just put the strings through them (or down into them, in the case of my Strat) and put a few wraps around the pegs, and they don't slip.
Click to expand...

Yep, absolutely no need to tie a string on. Tuners just don't slip, even the cheap ones. All your doing is making it a pain to get the old strings off.
 
thank you for (most of) the posts. I always love the 'your guitar stinks' kind of reply:rolleyes:

So in reply to the replies, here is some more info existing before my thread.

My main repair guy worked for Zion for many years- meaning that he is a competent and experienced builder and repair person. Unfortunately he is out of town the next 10 days, and I have a gig coming up in betweenhence the post.
- The Ibanez just had a complete refret and working over. It is setup with D'Addario 10-46, reinstalled a graphite nut and already has Sperzel's in place
- The Agile is quite a good cheapo, and a good friend of mine who is the head repair guy at Mandolin Bros in NY is listed as an endorsee, which I confirmed personally with him a few months back. It is all stock, and the previous owner used to use 12's and tune down about 1 1/2 steps. I had it reset for 1/2 step down and 10's
- The Dean has Sperzels and 10's and is the most recent problem of the three guitars.

Although it was an excellent post, I have always tuned up. It seems like it is happening on the top 3 strings, and it just should not be slipping every song. I have tried to identify whether it might be detuning up or down, as in maybe it is the nut pinching or expanding, but the graphite shouldn't make that happen.

The guitars are primarily for gigging and theft prevention purposes. I don't gig with my Modulus, Tele or Les Paul

But when all 3 seem to have the same problem- I got a problem :)

Please, carry on... I am listening to all the options

thanks,

TRD
 
I've never used graphite nuts, and don't have a feel for their hardness, etc.

Is it possible that the E, B, and G strings have dug themselves in a bit and that's causing them to bind in the nut? :confused:
 
TheRockDoc said:
thank you for (most of) the posts. I always love the 'your guitar stinks' kind of reply:rolleyes:

So in reply to the replies, here is some more info existing before my thread.

My main repair guy worked for Zion for many years- meaning that he is a competent and experienced builder and repair person. Unfortunately he is out of town the next 10 days, and I have a gig coming up in betweenhence the post.
- The Ibanez just had a complete refret and working over. It is setup with D'Addario 10-46, reinstalled a graphite nut and already has Sperzel's in place
- The Agile is quite a good cheapo, and a good friend of mine who is the head repair guy at Mandolin Bros in NY is listed as an endorsee, which I confirmed personally with him a few months back. It is all stock, and the previous owner used to use 12's and tune down about 1 1/2 steps. I had it reset for 1/2 step down and 10's
- The Dean has Sperzels and 10's and is the most recent problem of the three guitars.

Although it was an excellent post, I have always tuned up. It seems like it is happening on the top 3 strings, and it just should not be slipping every song. I have tried to identify whether it might be detuning up or down, as in maybe it is the nut pinching or expanding, but the graphite shouldn't make that happen.

The guitars are primarily for gigging and theft prevention purposes. I don't gig with my Modulus, Tele or Les Paul

But when all 3 seem to have the same problem- I got a problem :)

Please, carry on... I am listening to all the options

thanks,

TRD
Click to expand...

I have already told you where the problem lies, it's now down to you. The sort of problem you describe is down to the nut, the saddle or your understanding of intonation. You need to rule those out first. Until you have done that no one can help you.
 
Zaphod B said:
I've never used graphite nuts, and don't have a feel for their hardness, etc.

Is it possible that the E, B, and G strings have dug themselves in a bit and that's causing them to bind in the nut? :confused:
Click to expand...

A correctly cut nut is fine whatever it is made of, whether it is bone, micarta, graphite, what ever. Thats why I said the problem is the nut, saddle or...

well you guess the rest but we don't want to go there again do we.:D
 
I have a $200 guitar and I never have de-tuning problems :confused:

Then again, I re-string it every month and mega-rape the strings when I first install them. 5-min whammy bar torture, every fret bending, re-tune and repeat all over again.

Up until few weeks ago my nut wasn't even glued to the fretboard. Would stay in tune for hours. 0.52 gauge low-e also helps.
 
muttley600 said:
I have already told you where the problem lies, it's now down to you. The sort of problem you describe is down to the nut, the saddle or your understanding of intonation. You need to rule those out first. Until you have done that no one can help you.
Click to expand...

thank you, but 'intonation' is not IMO (unless I am misunderstanding your term for it) the issue as I can get it in tune very well. It is once the songs are on stage and being played.

When I bend a note, it will likely slip. I will not rule out my playing- for example I had to change my technique years back because I used very large frets and heavy left hand technique. It took me a while to understand that I had to play differently.

This is more like a 1/4 tone just dropping out when bending down to pitch. I agree that the nut is likely at the source, but didn't think that i could have three on stage all at the same time :)
 
Just a question: In setting up, would you need to cut the nut a little bit differently for a 3L/3R headstock than something of the Fender variety? I would think if you cut straight slots, not rounded off on the headstock end, that the strings would want to bite into that corner, especially the plain ones, which appear to be the ones you're having the trouble with. I'm just bringing it up b/c it looks like some of the guitars you're using (esp. that Dean) have fairly drastic string angles right there at the nut.
 
danw said:
Just a question: In setting up, would you need to cut the nut a little bit differently for a 3L/3R headstock than something of the Fender variety? I would think if you cut straight slots, not rounded off on the headstock end, that the strings would want to bite into that corner, especially the plain ones, which appear to be the ones you're having the trouble with. I'm just bringing it up b/c it looks like some of the guitars you're using (esp. that Dean) have fairly drastic string angles right there at the nut.
Click to expand...

If the nut is cut correctly that wouldn't be a problem. Yes the angle at which the sting passes over the nut is different depending on the position of the tuning post but on any guitar it MUST move freely when required. Ny creaking or problems like the one here are on nearly all cases down to the nut, or after that the saddle.
 
TheRockDoc said:
I will assume your are not cutting me down... unless you are...
Click to expand...

Not at all mate, its just we've had some pretty heated threads about the subject in the past. Just bung equal temperament into the search function and add my user name and you'll get it.;)

In the meantime just so we are talking the same thing read these two articles.

From the Guild of American Luthiery - How to tune you guitar to perfection.

and

From our old friend Paraglider who hangs out here sometimes.. This last one is a very well written explanation on Intonation and the reasons behind why it is misunderstood by many.

The point being if you tune you guitars to be in tune at the first position or nut using a tuner on all strings. There is a a high chance that up the neck things are not going to be what they seem.

If you can rule that out we will be left with the nut and/or the saddle and trem.

Good luck.
 
muttley600 said:
Not at all mate, its just we've had some pretty heated threads about the subject in the past...
In the meantime just so we are talking the same thing read these two articles...
The point being if you tune you guitars to be in tune at the first position or nut using a tuner on all strings. There is a a high chance that up the neck things are not going to be what they seem.

If you can rule that out we will be left with the nut and/or the saddle and trem.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure we are... or at least mine...

I'm not having a problem with intonation as you are discussing... I'm talking about, let's say, I'm standing on stage and I use a peterson stomp tuner. I have this/my little system of spot-checking the tuning through the neck top to bottom. The intonation 'itself' is working fine and I'm ready to start the song. I play a few chords, everything is great... I play a few more, everything is fine... I play a riff...b.o.i.n.g G-string drops/raises a 1/4 tone and I'm already in the middle of the song spending the rest of it waiting so I can retune...

grrrr

I keep thinking the nut is pinching, but maybe the bridge/saddles are not stable. I dunno... that's why I'm posting it...
 
TheRockDoc said:
I'm not sure we are... or at least mine...

I'm not having a problem with intonation as you are discussing... I'm talking about, let's say, I'm standing on stage and I use a peterson stomp tuner. I have this/my little system of spot-checking the tuning through the neck top to bottom. The intonation 'itself' is working fine and I'm ready to start the song. I play a few chords, everything is great... I play a few more, everything is fine... I play a riff...b.o.i.n.g G-string drops/raises a 1/4 tone and I'm already in the middle of the song spending the rest of it waiting so I can retune...

grrrr

I keep thinking the nut is pinching, but maybe the bridge/saddles are not stable. I dunno... that's why I'm posting it...
Click to expand...

In that case it has to be the nut, or possibly but less less likely the saddle. Have you changed the string gauge form the original setup?
 
muttley600 said:
A correctly cut nut is fine whatever it is made of, whether it is bone, micarta, graphite, what ever.
Click to expand...

There is one point where I will (mildly) disagree with you. A brass nut will not work with a tremelo bridge unless it locks. The coefficient of sliding friction metal to metal is just too high; the nut will retain tension no matter how wide the slots are.
 
muttley600 said:
In that case it has to be the nut, or possibly but less less likely the saddle. Have you changed the string gauge form the original setup?
Click to expand...

In one of the three so far, but I will do that today- Friday and I have a rehearsal Sat. I'll report back after...

thanks//;)
 
ggunn said:
There is one point where I will (mildly) disagree with you. A brass nut will not work with a tremelo bridge unless it locks. The coefficient of sliding friction metal to metal is just too high; the nut will retain tension no matter how wide the slots are.
Click to expand...

One good reason why you should never use a brass nut..:D
 
muttley600 said:
The point being if you tune you guitars to be in tune at the first position or nut using a tuner on all strings. There is a a high chance that up the neck things are not going to be what they seem.
Click to expand...
Not to hijack the thread, but last night I tried an experiment tuning differently than I usually do.

I use a Boss TU-something chromatic tuner (I know, not all that accurate but it will get you comfortably within the ballpark). I tuned every string to A, fretted, not by harmonics (with the exception of the 5th string).

So it went like this:
1st string, at 5th fret
2nd string, at 10th fret (scary, I know :D)
3rd string, at 2nd fret
4th string, at 7th fret
5th string, open
6th string, at 5th fret

This works very well, especially considering that the guitar's intonation isn't spot on (even that 10th fret tuning on the B string worked out).
 
A string that goes "boing" is definitely a sticky nut. Try this... Drop the tension on your G. Bring it up to pitch. Now, bend it hard. Check tuning . Did it go flat? Sticky nut. Still in tune? ...Thump that same G string open , pretty hard. Did it go sharp? Sticky nut. Lube and or have the slots filed by a pro. And I don't mean to insult your tech, but I have seen this and corected it for many a player who has "someone that is a good tech."

If this is only happening on one or a few strings it's not a neck joint issue. It can be a bridge saddle, but most likely you need to check the nut slots. Sometimes just a little graphite lube in the slot will cure it. I make my own mixture of vasaline and graphite powder that works great. A toothpick dab is all you need.

If you have a string that just won't stop sticking, no matter what is done for it(by a qualified tech), You can lessen the angle of the string by wrapping it from "bottom to top" meaning... wrap it so that it ends up at the top of the post instead of at the bottom. EVH used to do this with his early Charvels before the locking nuts were used. It will decrease the friction.
 
Last edited:
goldtopchas said:
A string that goes "boing" is definitely a sticky nut. Try this... Drop the tension on your G. Bring it up to pitch. Now, bend it hard. Check tuning . Did it go flat? Sticky nut. Still in tune? ...Thump that same G string open , pretty hard. Did it go sharp? Sticky nut. Lube and or have the slots filed by a pro. And I don't mean to insult your tech, but I have seen this and corected it for many a player who has "someone that is a good tech."

If this is only happening on one or a few strings it's not a neck joint issue. It can be a bridge saddle, but most likely you need to check the nut slots. Sometimes just a little graphite lube in the slot will cure it. I make my own mixture of vasaline and graphite powder that works great. A toothpick dab is all you need.

If you have a string that just won't stop sticking, no matter what is done for it(by a qualified tech), You can lessen the angle of the string by wrapping it from "bottom to top" meaning... wrap it so that it ends up at the top of the post instead of at the bottom. EVH used to do this with his early Charvels before the locking nuts were used. It will decrease the friction.
Click to expand...

Well the same tech has worked on all three guitars and their nurtz- I mean nuts :) and it might be in his technique- he does lots of excellent work, but it may be one specific issue that is the common thread... it may be a different way that he works with...
hmmmm
OK- I'll talk with him next Wednesday and see what he thinks
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top