Live Sound

  • Thread starter Thread starter eraos
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I've been trolling this thread since the beginning, trying to bite my tongue because it's tough and very expensive to get into live sound.

the "watts per person" formula is flawed. certain speaker systems are much more efficient than others, and i'm mainly speaking about line arrays here. older types of PA cabinets are much LESS efficient than others, requiring more power... in short you cannot use wattage as an accurate indicator of what a PA will do.

what you need is coverage...and by that i mean different PA systems for different rooms. if you have a long room, your going to need a horn loaded PA so you can hit those people seated way at the back. ultimately a line array is best but to really do a line array well you need to fly it, and to fly it you need a substantial amout of hardware, not to mention the venue will need trim height...yada yada, you're probably stuck groundstacking. for a short but wide room, you'll need more, smaller cabinets to properly cover your audience. it's best if these would be of a front loaded design.


In all honesty i would say to you to buy a small pair of speakers (maybe a 12" + 1" horn) that can also be used for monitors. possibly get a powered mixer. you aren't getting in real deep financially, and you can probably do shows up to about 150 people. (maybe more depending on which manufactures you go with) most of the shows you will be doing will be in this attendance range i'm guessing. if you need a more powerful system, you can always rent additional gear and charge more money to cover your costs. this way, you can learn about live sound, find out what you like and don't like about it, and go from there.


in my experience, it takes time to develop a critical ear for live mixing. you've got one shot to make it happen...unlike recording where you can do a bunch of takes to get it right.you've got to be fast, and be good at troubleshooting... i think it would be best for you to start really simple and move up.


LAST BUT NOT LEAST.... you mentioned that your hoping to mix for bands that might be going to your university... these people do not have money to pay for a sound guy. they probably don't have money to pay for your gas to drive to a gig. for alot of these acts, you'll be kinda like an extra member, doing it for free and always looking for a break to make it big time. don't make a BIG investment that you probably won't make any money on.

Matt.
 
In general, 5000 watts wouldn't be enough to run a heavy rock show for 500 people and still sound decent. That would be 2 or 3 monitor mixes in my rig. Raw wattage is not the real goal. The quality of the power you are using makes a huge difference in how things sound, and in how much you need. Thats why amps are different prices. If you were to go with cheap Behringer or Nady amps, you may want to consider bumping your wattage up to closer to 50 watts per person.
 
I've done a fair amount of live sound and if I were to buy a new system then I would start with a pair of 2-15 cabs with horns. EV or JBL, take your pick, they run about $600 each. 1000 watt amp would be the bare min. The nice thing about those cabs is that you can buy another pair (and amp) when you can afford them and really get awsome dispersion by angling the speaker pairs OR you could add a GOOD sub and amp. All your upgrades will revolve around your 2-15" cabs.

Unfortunatly, your looking at about $8,000-10,000+ to REALLY get concert quality sound for 700+ people. Until then, you can fake it for $2000. ;)
 
Thanks for the info.

150 people would definitely probably be the average audience. I was just figuring 500 because I didn't realize it would be so expensive.

Matt, what is the line array that you mentioned in your post? Is that what it sounds like: speakers in a line across the stage for wide rooms?
 
eraos said:
Matt, what is the line array that you mentioned in your post? Is that what it sounds like: speakers in a line across the stage for wide rooms?
Click to expand...

These are line arrays:
 
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vertical line array http://www.l-acoustics.com/images/Actu/grand/1.jpg

horzintal Line array
http://www.l-acoustics.com/images/Actu/grand/2.jpg

The kudo is a new design. It can be an array or even stacks horzintal. Their is a nice flash demo of it on that website.




That's really not that big if you look at V-DOSC or Ver-Tec arrays. JBL does have a new lil array but it's almost too small to be a true line array. Their's also dV-DOSC which are used alot for center fills. They could be used as a small array even ground stacked. But you would need a big budget and even a semi-tractor to think about these rigs.

Even a few have powered arrays like meyer and new ver-tec's.
 
i really like the EAW 730 line array. nice small boxes, i think they weigh 60lbs each.

the main advantage of a line array is that it's vertical coverage is very narrow... about 10 degrees or so...and you can "aim" it at the audience. properly set-up, it will deliver a much more uniform frequency response throughout the entire venue, compared to a conventional design. however, to get the full benefit, you have to fly it, and aim the cabinets down. this usually requires some kind of heavy duty fly hardware, or stands.

with most line arrays, there is a minimum amount of cabinets that are required per side, as they work on princibles of acoustic coupling. also, they do take a little more time to set-up than a conventional PA
 
Typically, you are looking at more than $30000 just for enough mini array boxes (8) to do a small show. Then another $6000 for 4 subs , probably another $8500 for amps, and another $3000 for crossovers. This would be the cheapest and smallest of most line arrays, and due to the tight focus of line arrays would be capable of decent spl's, but would not be able to run too large a room because of actaul focus issues. Then you would also have to look into fly hardware. Even if you ground stack, you still have to have the hardware.

As far as V-Dosc goes, the DV-dosc cabs are more than capable of running actual shows and are often times preferred to the full size V-Dosc cabs in many of your 5000 seat and under venues. The EAW array (the smaller one) is a pretty small box, but really doesn't seem to have the same smoothness and clarity and depth as the V-Dosc rigs. The JBL sounds a little better, but still has a little too much of that "JBL" sound. The smaller JBL's however do seem to have a smoother tighter sound, but then they really should since the use smaller drivers.

Bottom line is that line arrays are VERY expensive. Not just the cost of the boxes, but the whole rest of the system really needs to be at their level as well to be able to take full advantage of their true capabilities. Also, conventional ground stacks (point and shoot) will actually sound better than a line array that has not been properly focused and zoned.
 
i guess i got ahead of myself... i forgot we're trying to do this on the cheap :D
 
Cave Dweller said:
i guess i got ahead of myself... i forgot we're trying to do this on the cheap :D
Click to expand...


gives me something to dream about.



Plus, I may have upwards of $5k for this. So maybe not arrays, but definitely something.
 
You can get yourself a kickin' little system for that kind of money, especially if you shop around, and buy used wherever possible. Of course, you will also need at least a minivan to move it in. :)

You can drive yourself nuts doing research on gear at Prosoundweb's community forums. Browse through the lab lounge, use the search function, and check the study hall when you get going. Lots of great (and sometimes highly opinionated) info.
 
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