Live show taping

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drewboy

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Hi folks! I'm a newbie here who has been lurking for a while and digesting all the great info tossed around here. I do a fair amount of amateur home recording, and currently have a SP C1, AT MB4000C, MXL V57M, Joemeek VC6Q, Presonus Bluetube and Tascam US428 to capture audio onto the PC.

I am trying to branch out and do some live show recordings and recently purchased a Tascam DA-P1 DAT recorder. I expect that mostly I will be recording in small to medium size venues. I'd like to get some advice on what mic'ing options might work best for that. I am somewhat limited on price and would try and limit expense to around $500 or so (if I need to stretch a little more to get there, please tell me though).

I'd like to do some stereo recording to try and capture more of the ambience. From what I hear aound here, the Octava MC012's matched pair seems to be a pretty attractive option. I am assuming that for the live environment a small diaphram condensor is probably the choice? Please confirm. Also, any opinions on the DA-P1 preamp and ADC performance? I see a lot of tapers out there using a separate preamp and converter with the DA-P1, which baffles me a little bit. I'm also wondering how my Bluetube would work out as a pre for this application.

I know, a lot of questions but I sure would appreciate some good advice. I really appreciate all the great dialog that goes on here.

Drewboy
 
I've had luck with SD condensers at classical concerts... the Marshall 603s's are popular and affordable. Check eBay for 'em.

Isaiah
 
Thanks for the feedback Isaiah. I should have said that my recorded music will be closer to rock/blues/loud acoustic stuff. So the 603 has a sub-cardioid pattern - good for capturing a bit more of crowd noise and room acoustics I imagine? I don't think that I will be recording further than maybe 100 ft or so from the stage. Most of the music sound will be coming from the PA columns at the left and right side of the stage, perhaps with some drums being directly audible. This is not exactly an ideal acoustic environment.

I just checked Ebay, had one 603 brand new going in the $60-$70 range. Hard to beat that! I seem to recall hearing that Octavas with single capsule going at GC for around $99 during sale specials. How about ECM8000? Or what do I gain by going up to an SM81 perhaps?

I guess I'm really trying to understand what are some of the important requirements for this application? Accuracy? Switchable bass rolloff perhaps? Max SPL? Sensitivity? Am I on the right track here with a small diaphram condensor?

Thanks for the help folks,

Drewboy
 
It seems to me like you'd want to stay away from an omni. I've never done anything remotely like you're suggesting, but I'd try the 603s. I use them for various things and they're wonderful mics.

BTW, The Dead Milkmen recorded their one live album by putting up a pair of condensor mics in the club they played in (they didn't specify LD or SD). It sounds pretty good.
 
ever considered using a a multicore splitter?
This way you can use the clubs mics as well as your own,run it out to a dress room and monitor the mix down to DAT.
 
Yeah, after reading through more of the post histories here the omni is clearly a bad option for this purpose. I'm awful tempted to pick up a pair of ECM8000's for my home recording use for acoustic guitar recording though! I am also pretty much decided to go for the MXL 603s stereo pair and see how it works out for the live recording. For that price, you really can't go wrong.

Not exactly sure what a multicore splitter is, but mixing down from various sources is a tempting option. I was considering mixing down a combination of direct soundboard and the stereo mic's as one possiblity. As an aside, can somebody comment on whether the sub-cardioid pattern of the MXL 603s will work well in an X-Y stereo recording setup?

And one more thing: I assume there are mic holders that are specifically designed for X-Y micing (ie, a dual mic holders so you don't have to use 2 stands crammed up against each other)? I looked around on-line at several musical equipment suppliers and couldn't find any reference to something like this, but I'm almost certain I've heard of these somewhere.

This is an awesome message board folks - I've learned a lot hanging around here. And to Harvey Gerst - you rock sir! I hope that you continue to post timely information on new products here. It seems like there are a continuing string of new developments in this area right now (should I say a revolution?).

Drewboy
 
Something to keep in mind is that the 603's as are the Octavas and most all condesers require phantom power that I don't believe the portable DAT machine will provide. Also, while I'm sure the preamps in it are usable, an outboard unit would most certainly be better. Same could be said for the A/D converters. Does that DAT have digital inputs/outputs?
 
Appreciate your feedback Track Rat. The Tascam DA-P1 does indeed have phantom power as well as digital audio inputs, it's a pretty full featured field DAT recording unit. The specs look pretty decent (20-20Khz +/- 0.5dB, 90dB S/N, 90dB dynamic range, THD <.007% @1Khz, <85dB chan sepration). Right now I'm just considering using the Bluetube pre I have (with tube drive all the way down) as a step up. I would be recording at 44.1Khz, 16-bit to avoid resampling before burning to CD (48Khz is an option with the unit). Honestly, I'm not sure what the limiting factor in my signal chain would be now, and whether an external converter would buy me anything in terms of sound quality.

I suppose the conclusion many people here would reach is to use external equipment in the analog signal chain that you already know works well to minimize the variables and use the DAT recorder solely to capture the digital audio. That's a pretty reasonable and solid strategy with the down side of getting more cumbersome in a public setting with more equipment, patch cords and wall warts, etc to deal with. I guess maybe I'm grappling with the gulf between a mobile recording studio and an amateur show taping.

Again, much thanks folks.

Drewboy
 
Tell you what I'd do. Given that you portable DAT has the phantom power covered, if you don't already own some decent mics, I'd pick up a pair of the 603's and go for it. I've done live recording just in this fashion except my DAT had no mic pre's and such so I used an external preamp (Mackie 1202VLZ Pro) and a pair of AT 4033's and got stunning results.
 
Got my order in at Zzounds for 2 MXL 603s mics today. Can't wait! I've been going through the mother of all mic threads this AM (again) and getting all my answers about X-Y mic'ing. What a great thread and source of valuable info!

I'll probably end up doing what you suggested Track Rat because of the simplicity. I have 6 hrs of battery life for the DA-P1 and won't need to hassle with power outlets at all if necessary.

Drewboy
 
I was thinking of using a CD writer instead of a DAT for live shows,then just hand it too em after the show???
 
I've tried the CDR thing myself. Don't do it!

When it works, it's great...however, I haven't found CDRs to be stable enough (either the machines or the media) - one knock and you're stuffed.

I'd go for DAT first, MD if cost is a factor, cassette (with a decent metal tape) third and CDR as an absolute last resort. You lose some sound quality with cassete (& a tiny bit with MD), but you gain an exponential increase in reliability.

Regard CDRs as the flexidisc of our generation (similar longevity and, in some cases, sound quality!) and you won't go far wrong.
 
I use Rode NT3s for a lot of live work and find them very suitable because of the narrow response pattern.

If I ever found out how to post MP3s I could post some of the results I have had with rock bands.

I have not had much luck recording live onto a computer (windows Fu*cks up again) and switched to an HD recorder for live work. I then take it home and do all of the Mix-Downs using Vegas Audio and only then produce the CD.
 
er, um - there was another thread here just a moment ago - I thought I'd already said this, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I've found the simplest way is to use a couple of PZMs taped to the wall. Very easy to set up, doesn't get in the way of the dancers, or the performers, or mess up the sight-lines.

Here's a pointer to the web-site of one of my bands - the MP3s were recorded with using two PZMs taped to the back wall.

J K X-tet

Good Luck!

- Wil
 
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