Live Mixing With PC

[Tekker]

Hi all,

I’m doing some research into live sound mixing through the computer, because I’d like to try that out in our church. We currently share the building with another church and you know how things go with having several different sound guys at the board.... I'd like to try using the PC so we can have automatic recall for both of our churches. Plus we’d have access to a lot more effects instead of just one reverb/effects unit.

We currently have a Mackie 8-bus mixer, but it’s having some issues and we’ll likely have to return it.... If we do I’m going to suggest mixing through the PC instead of trading it in for another of the same mixer.

The biggest thing I’m running into is how to get the sounds into the PC. We’d need at the very least 18 input channels and preferably 24. We will probably only need about 8 outputs (max) for feeding FOH and the stage monitors. What we need for the input interfaces are A/D converters with mic preamps, as all mixing will be done inside the PC. I'm not crazy about using the Behringer ADA8000’s but they seem like the best option. From what I have found, the next step up for A/D’s with mic pres would be in the range of RME which are very expensive for only 8 channels. I even looked at mixers with firewire (like the Mackie Onyx), but they only have 8 preamps. We mic everything, so we will need to have mic pres for each channel. Does Mackie have something like the Behringer ADA8000 that would be a little better quality but not as expensive as RME? I don’t want to sacrifice too much in quality, because we are getting good sounds with the Mackie mixer, but I’m pretty sure we can’t afford 24 channels of RME. I don’t know how much they paid for the Mackie (I’ll have to find out) but I know they got a very good deal on it. So I imagine if they return the mixer, then whatever we do with the PC will have to be in the same price range.

The other stuff I plan on using:
SAWStudio Basic - very low latency and stable, which is perfect for this kind of application.
(2 or 3) Behringer BCF2000 controllers – so the sound guy can control the volume with “real” faders.
Frontier Design Transport (maybe) - for mixing while walking around the room and for letting each musician adjust their own monitor mix from the stage to be just the way they want it (that would be sweet! )

Any comments and suggestions on the interface or anything else would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
-tkr

 

[Bulls Hit]

You could run an ada8000 via adat through one of those new Presonus Firestations - that would give you 16 preamps via firewire to your PC

 

[Tekker]

I recently found out that SAW Basic only supports 16 I/O channels and we'd need about 18-24 so I don't think it's going to end up working out.

I actually heard a recording done by Bob Lentini (the creater of SAW) where he used the Behringer ADA8000 exclusively along with SAW and it sounds awesome. So I would probably go with 3 of the Behringers if SAW Basic was compatible with them. SAW Lite would work, but that's a $900 difference for just a few extra tracks. So I think we'll just trade the mixer back in.

-tkr

 

[Bulls Hit]

But with those 3 Behringers, won't you also need some kind of adat interface to your pc?

 

[pepsifx357]

In The Same Boat

Dude Me and my friend had the same Idea for our church of course they wouldn't listen to us. They decided to spend $8,000 for some retards to come in and give them a bunch of crap equipment.

Anyway so me and my friend are trying to do this for our band and our idea is:

Get a GOOD computer cause you don't wan't it to crap out in the middle of a service lord knows the preacher wouldn't like that!

Get a presonus Digimax adat or 2, or however many you need. they have 8 in and 8 out on each one, the expensive one has 8 out and the cheaper one doesn't have any outputs just inputs so you could mix it up, please don't buy a behringer they suck, it'll crap out on you! The presonus stuff has individual pre amps on each mic in so you can cut them off for non phantom powered mics.

you'll need a mixing controller or you'll be clicking like crazy trying to get the ring out of the main when the preacher says he needs more monitors. I've looked around and the best thing I would think is the Tascam US-2400 its around $700 and has 24 tracks with sliders probably about the same as that $3,000 Mackie you got which my church has too.

Most people will look at you like your an idiot when you say you want to use a computer for live mixing but I know that Its possible and most likely It will be used in the future by everybody.

 

[Bulls Hit]

Most people will look at you like your an idiot when you say you want to use a computer for live mixing but I know that Its possible and most likely It will be used in the future by everybody.

Yeah of course it will. Rock up to church with a laptop, do the show, then take it away again. The beauty of firewire

 

[Tekker]

But with those 3 Behringers, won't you also need some kind of adat interface to your pc?

Yep, you're right, I just checked and we will need an adat interface. I figured they would also have something like a firewire or USB kind of connection, but it's just adat.

Get a GOOD computer cause you don't wan't it to crap out in the middle of a service lord knows the preacher wouldn't like that!

Luckily our worship leader is a computer guru. He's a network admin for a local school district and we would likely use his laptop, which he keeps running like a clock.

Get a presonus Digimax adat or 2, or however many you need. they have 8 in and 8 out on each one, the expensive one has 8 out and the cheaper one doesn't have any outputs just inputs so you could mix it up, please don't buy a behringer they suck, it'll crap out on you!

I was thinking the same thing about Behringer, I've got a Behringer mixer and it sucks. But I've heard several folks say that the ADA8000 is actually quite good.... I mentioned Bob Lentini's recording done with it, but I guess I forgot to post a link with it. lol So if you want to hear the ADA8000 in action with SAWStudio, you can hear some songs here:
http://lonbronson.com/livecd.html

you'll need a mixing controller or you'll be clicking like crazy trying to get the ring out of the main when the preacher says he needs more monitors. I've looked around and the best thing I would think is the Tascam US-2400 its around $700 and has 24 tracks with sliders probably about the same as that $3,000 Mackie you got which my church has too.

Yep, I was thinking about using 2 or 3 of the Behringer 8-fader controllers linked together. 3 of them would be about $600. The sites I have checked for the Tascam all said they no longer carry it.... But their price on it was $799. Guess we could always ebay it or just find a store that still carries it.

Most people will look at you like your an idiot when you say you want to use a computer for live mixing but I know that Its possible and most likely It will be used in the future by everybody.

Absolutely, it is very possible. Especially with a low latency program like SAW. I don't think it's going to work with SAW Basic due to it's limiations, but Bob said he's working on a program called SAC that will be exacly what I want, which is a live mixing console.... Instead of being geared towareds recording/editing/etc. (I've got Samplitude for that ) He said it'll likely have 64 to 72 tracks of I/O, 24 monitor outs, and 6 aux channels!! Unfortunately I don't think we can wait for this to come out, so we'll just trade our mixer in for the time being. We can always sell it at a later time if we have to.

-tkr

 

[xstatic]

Why not just buy a digital mixer? Personally, there is no way I would even consider 3 behringer BCF2000's on one system a stable system. Also, with software, you are going to have a hell of a time getting channels EQ'ed in a hurry if you even need them. I certainly understand the thought process here, and it is certainly possible, but the latency that you will have (especially running 24 tracks in real time with processing on top of that and on a laptop to boot) will most likely be way too much for the monitor system. Even if the system was rock stable, it seems to me to be to "clunky" to be of as much use as you think. At least with a digital mixer you have all of the stuff laid out in such a way that you can get to things much faster and in a much more organized manor. I would even consider looking for a used yamah O2R. You can get one of those for less than you will spend on 2 Behringer 8 channel preamps, 3 BCF 2000's, your software, plug ins, etc... Not only will you have saved money, but you will have higher quality preamps and converters, pretty nice FX built right in, flying faders that respond are easier to learn (the Behringers are not labeled and have to be programmed for specific functions), and a pretty much unnoticable latency without stressing some sort of computer that you are trying like hell to be stable.

Now what I have done in the past and will probably refine a little and do more in the future is use my laptop with a soundcard etc.... to interface with a traditional analog setup and use it as FX sends. I just patch it into aux outputs of a console and return it to stereo channels, and use it for time based FX such as reverb, delays etc...

 

[Tekker]

Why not just buy a digital mixer?

For one thing, the cost of 24 channel digital mixers are significantly more expensive. Plus with a PC, we could use wireless controllers like the Frontier Tranzport and be able to control the volume from anywhere in the room as well as letting each musician/singer tweak their own monitor mix from the stage (this would be very nice for me ). I've never used the effects on a digital mixer, but I know SAW's effects are all top notch!

Personally, there is no way I would even consider 3 behringer BCF2000's on one system a stable system. Also, with software, you are going to have a hell of a time getting channels EQ'ed in a hurry if you even need them.

Do the behringer's have driver issues? What could cause the behringer's to be unstable? As far as the software, have you checked out SAWStudio? That program has incredibly low latency and it is very stable as well. So there sure won't be any issues from SAW..... But keeping Windows running will be another thing. LOL!

Even if the system was rock stable, it seems to me to be to "clunky" to be of as much use as you think. At least with a digital mixer you have all of the stuff laid out in such a way that you can get to things much faster and in a much more organized manor.

Actually, someone on the Samplitude forum mentioned running some tests with an even more extensive setup than I was thinking about.... and since the forum is for Samplitude owners only, I'll post what he was saying about it.

"SAW is great for live use. Best lo latency engine, stabillity, Remote (TCP) operation. You can have PC on stage and control it with other PC or tablet PC, connected via LAN or Wireless lan. No multicore needed. Sound enginner can walk free in the venue and controll the sound from various locations.

I've been done a lot of test here.

SAW

1,5ms latency
48 tracks
ALL DYN,EQ turned ON
4x AUX SENDS (for monitoring)
1x AUX RVB.
1x AUX DLY
recording all 48 pre procesed tracks at 24bit
CPU load 50% on AMD Athlon XP2600+

Amazing!!!"


"Well, I'm not doing it yet. Just testing the engines. That's it. Nothing more.

For live I would use

RME HDSP Cards
Mix preamps/ AD's like RME Octamic or Focusrite Octopre
4 Behringer or 1 x Tascam hardware fader controller
Good and lo latency optimized PC in 19" rack case
dual or tripple 19" LCD monitoring

optional
Tablet PC with wLan (saw supports remote work) to go and adjust sound anywhere in the venue.

I think this setup outperforms consoles like Soundtracks - Digico D5. The most used digital live console
http://www.digico.org/DiGiCo-05/art-d5-shows.htm"


That's basically what got me started on this whole thing. Real world results, and it sounds pretty awesome to me.

I would even consider looking for a used yamah O2R. You can get one of those for less than you will spend on 2 Behringer 8 channel preamps, 3 BCF 2000's, your software, plug ins, etc...

Wow! I think $9,000+ for the O2R is considerably out of our budget. Very cool mixer, just way to expensive.

-tkr

 

[bgavin]

There is a lot of chatter about Mackie 8-buss boards being problematic. The product line was discontinued because of this, so I'm not surprised yours is having problems. I understand the problem is repairable with a complete cable replacement kit.

Mixing with a mouse is a whole lot different (and slower) than using physical faders. Something to consider.

You can buy a Mackie 24.4 VLZ Pro for a reasonable price, or look into a Yamaha or other solid board. I don't care for Behringer, and don't use it. YMMV.

 

[xstatic]

Look for a used O2R. They can be found for under $2000. If you do want results like mentioned above, your price will go considerably up to make sure all of the parts are top notch and ready to keep the system running smooth.

As far as the Behringer BCF2000's, they have HUGE problems. Not everybody has the problems, but having talked to people in a couple of different retail locations, they have told me that about 75% of the BCF's sold get returned. This is a VERY HIGH return rate. First off, if the firmware update procedure is not followed to a tee (which is a mandatory update if you want any kind of functionality) than the BCF will lock itself in a mode where not all emulation styles are able to be used and the USB port loses most if not all of it's functionality. Having done this update a couple of times now, I can tell you that it is absolutely silly that a bug that bad get released.

Now for the Frontier Tranzport.... Consider that you can only expect a reliable range of about 30 feet, and maybe less. Also, it is WAY to slow to move around and make a lot of changes in a short amount of time (like most live settings require). Now if you were to use a good wireless laptop link or tablet PC etc... that would make the features much more usable.

As for the SAW tests, I am not sure I would count on that being that accurate. 1.5 ms of latency is very low for a round trip signal to enter a soundcard, get through windows and into the SAW application and then get back out of SAW, through windows once again, and then back out your soundcard. Add to that 48 of channels of activated dynamics and EQ's, and I certainly don't trust that report. maybe 1.5ms as an input latency, but not as a combined I/O latency with 48 channels of dynamics and EQ's running. Once again though, the computer it would take to keep that operating that smoothly is going to cost some bucks. I can almost guarantee it won't be your ministers laptop.

Once again, I do understand wanting to make a system like this work. It would be pretty cool. However, running a pro audio company and having mixed live for over 1000 bands, I can tell you that there are a lot of red flags that pop in a system like this. Firstly, stability. I think even with top notch parts, you still can not guarantee or even expect quite as much stability with a system like this. Especially knowing that others will be using it. People see a computer and think they know what they are doing and as a result mess things up. With a digital console it is much easier to lock out users form some things, and then not from others. Second, usability. A computer system is very powerful in the sense that if you can imagine it, you can pretty much do it. However, it is still far too clunky to deal with the time crunch of a live show where hours and hours of rehearsal and set up are not available before each show. If however you have a worksurface with enough controls (lots of dedicated knobs) than the usability factor could be greatly increased (like the new Digidesign Venue series stuff....). Third, the cost to performance ratio. In my opinion, you can set up a system based around a digital console for much less than a system based around a DAW. At least for live use. By the time you add in three reliable sound cards, make sure they all play nice, get all the nice hardware (good power supply, motherboard, processor, hard drives etc....) you could have had some new consoles, or some nicer ones used. Fourth, it is MUCH easier to teach someone how to use a digital console than to teach them how to run a DAW efficiently enough to run a live show, but also have the knowledge to set it up and patch etc... properly.

It's not that it can't work, but at this point in time I still think that DAWS have not evolved enough yet (and controllers) to where they can really be more of an asset than a liability in a live show setting. It is a cool idea, and I think with a little more time it will start happening, but I certainly would not want to be responsible for a system like that right now.

 

[Tekker]

Look for a used O2R. They can be found for under $2000.

Really? Where are good places to look? I doubt I'll ever see one that cheap as over $7000 is an aweful big price drop even for used gear..... unless we're talking "abused" gear. LOL

As far as the Behringer BCF2000's, they have HUGE problems.

The Tascam US2400 is another option and can be found for about the same price as several BCF's linked together. I know it's been discontinued, but if it works well then that's all that matters.

As for the SAW tests, I am not sure I would count on that being that accurate.

I don't know anything more than what he said. I do know that SAW has incredibly low latency (much lower than anything else out there), so I don't doubt that the numbers are very low.

Once again though, the computer it would take to keep that operating that smoothly is going to cost some bucks. I can almost guarantee it won't be your ministers laptop.

But like I said, he's not just the worship leader.... He's a computer junky. lol I don't know what's in his laptop but he has his PC decked out with all top notch stuff.... He also gets very good discounts on computer stuff because he is a network admin for a school district, so anything we'd need he could get at very good price. Plus he actually knows how to keep the computers running smoothly, and that is most important.

Combined with SAW, which is probably the most CPU efficient and stable program on the planet and I think it would be very possible to run this setup even if the computer wasn't all top of the line. Try out the SAW demo and see if you can make it crash using its internal effects. The SAW effects are all designed for low latency and CPU operation. I tried a test with SAW using 48 channels of EQ and dynamics, and 8 of those channels had two instances of both reverb and two instances of delay/echo... and the load indicator in SAW was around 58%. The funny thing is, my PC is having major issues at the moment. LOL! I know I need to reload windows, but I just haven't had time and/or the energy to going through all that hassle yet.

We'd never need even close to that amount. Really just around 18 tracks tracks of EQ and compression with a few reverbs on the aux channels for vocals and other instruments (drums can all use the same reverb also). That's about it.

People see a computer and think they know what they are doing and as a result mess things up.

Well, luckily there's not a whole lot anyone can mess up. LOL Once the settings are set, they will all be saved and all that will need to be done is volume adjustments and maybe some minor effect adjustments. That's about it really.

A computer system is very powerful in the sense that if you can imagine it, you can pretty much do it. However, it is still far too clunky to deal with the time crunch of a live show where hours and hours of rehearsal and set up are not available before each show.

That's the beauty of this whole thing, since we never leave the building, everything should sound fairly constant from week to week, so we can just use our saved settings each week (with minor tweaks).... Thus decreasing the amount of setup time.

Third, the cost to performance ratio. In my opinion, you can set up a system based around a digital console for much less than a system based around a DAW. At least for live use. By the time you add in three reliable sound cards, make sure they all play nice, get all the nice hardware (good power supply, motherboard, processor, hard drives etc....) you could have had some new consoles, or some nicer ones used.

I don't know, I was looking at 24 fader digital consoles as well but all the ones I saw (like the O2R) were very expensive. Seems like I could put together a PC setup for cheaper than anything I found. Plus I don't know how the effects are in those units, and I'm sure the SAW effects would be much better.

Fourth, it is MUCH easier to teach someone how to use a digital console than to teach them how to run a DAW efficiently enough to run a live show, but also have the knowledge to set it up and patch etc... properly.

Yep, that's another issue of course. It's too bad there aren't better controllers that are layed out like a typical analog mixer (with all the EQ controls, submix controls, aux channels, etc) that don't cost $10,000+ and only work on ProTools.

It's not that it can't work, but at this point in time I still think that DAWS have not evolved enough yet (and controllers) to where they can really be more of an asset than a liability in a live show setting. It is a cool idea, and I think with a little more time it will start happening, but I certainly would not want to be responsible for a system like that right now.

Honestly, I think the weak link is with the controller. If you haven't tried SAW yet, I would seriously give it a try. I find the user interface a little to odd to use for recording/editing/etc. but the program is very efficiently programmed and it runs like melted buttah!

-tkr

 

[Tekker]

You can buy a Mackie 24.4 VLZ Pro for a reasonable price, or look into a Yamaha or other solid board. I don't care for Behringer, and don't use it. YMMV.

I've heard the Onyx boards are sweet as well. So since we will likely be going the analog route for a while, I'll try to talk them into that.

-tkr

 

[bgavin]

Onyx is a step up from the VLZ boards, both in quality and price.

My take on Onyx is wait a few years for the hardware/board revisions to stabilize. No hardware is released anymore that remains at a 1.0 rev level. They are constantly making improvements (read: bug fixes) and changing the board levels on the newer products.

For live mixing, my 24.4 VLZ Pro does just fine. It is reliable, which is more important to me than squeezing out the Nth degree of sound quality. I'd be surprised if a workship audience could hear the difference between the two. They can certainly hear if the board stops working in the middle of services.

 

[xstatic]

Well, it seems like you have really given all of this some serious thought. That is a good thing. I still think that to get a system like you want up and running properly and stably is going to cost you quite a bit more than you originally thought. Its good that you are giving it so much thought though because you will not have as wide of a network of support to deal with some things that may come up because you are forging into some new territory. Personally, I think that is cool. Professionally though, I think when a system is depended on than it needs to be tried and true. It needs to be stable, functional, upgradable, and servicable.

I would certainly go with a Tascam over the Behringer as far as a control surface goes. Even though it is discontinued, you may still get better support than you will from Behringer.

I am still worried about the time it is going to take you to make an adjustment when it is necessary. SAW may well run stable for you, but what happens when one mic starts to feed back in the monitors and you need to quickly turn that thing down. The way live sound works, it is not always easy to establish which mic is the culprit. Sometimes we have to quickly lower an aux send from a certain channel. Sometimes we have to do it to two or three or even more channels quickly. I personally can do 6 channels on a console in about three seconds. That includes interpreting the sound, deciding which channels to do it to, and actually doing it. My bet is that with a software application that could take three seconds to just do one channel, and it will not be as accurate of an adjustment. I have noticed (through mixing digitally inside Cubase for years now) that it can be very difficult to make a small change in an aux send without manually typing in the value. In a live setting this could translate to something extremely distracting for musicians. In any event though, if you can not get to a channel quickly, there is a real risk of actually damaging equipment. If feedback gets out of control on you (which can happen within 10 seconds pretty easily) there is a real risk of blowing drivers in monitors or mains. When feedback like this starts, it is important to stop it before it gets to that point, but to stop it on the channel level and not just the main outputs. If you just kill the main outs, than you haven't found the problem and it may return at a later point.

As far as Yamaha 02R's go..... a $7000 decrease in value on them is very normal. Consoles that cost $250,000 8 years ago now sell on the market at around $75000 and often even less. The depreciation on some equipment just works like that. With some equipment, just taking it home cuts its value in half. I did some quick searching after reading your last post. I did manage to find a couple of O2R's for under $2000, but most were just under $3500 (usually around $2500). Here are a few sites to check for them....

http://www.hticsproaudio.com
http://www.soundbroker.com
http://www.ebay.com

It certainly is not necessary to have to buy an actual yamaha O2R, but I did have some reasoning behind it. First, they have been out for a while now and are pretty stable. Second, there is a good sized user base to get help from. Third, they are expandable at a pretty low cost. Fourth, yamaha still makes a version of an 02R, so they may also be useful for parts and troubleshooting.

As far as sound quality goes, the Yamaha preamps are going to be on par with anything else that you are going to get 16 channels of for $1500 or less. The Eq's will also be as usable. In the yamnaha though, you do also get a decent gate and compressor per channel, easier access to common features than a DAW set up would provide, recallable cues that load almost instantly where a DAW would take a good 20 seconds at least to get loaded, and excellent sounding FX. Personally, I would bet that the yamah internal effects sound much better than the stock ones in SAW. The yamah consoles all have effects based off of there spx series of processors which are pretty well known and widely accepted. The stock stuff in most all of the DAW apps are typically not that hot, SAW not being an exception. Over the years I have tried SAW out on several different occasions. Every once and a while I try out all the different DAW apps in the studio to make sure I am still the using the app that I will like the best. I do understand that it is not a completely fair test since I am sooo comfortable and familiar with Cubase. But, when I am testing I look for things like workflow, layout, features that are different that I like or dislike, etc... I try and remind myself that I will not be as efficient in a new app, but that I can still look for those things without having personal efficiency be a factor. I have never liked the overall feel of SAW. It just didn't meet what I was looking for I guess. I found the stock plugins (EQ's, Compressors, reverbs etc....) to be on par with pretty much all of the apps out there. Basically, nothing to write home about.

In the end, I would not say that SAW would be a higher quality interface as far as pure sonics go than an O2R. Just the fact that you will be running the whole signal through what is probably a less than optimal PA in a room that may be challenged evens out things quite a bit. With the 02R you should be able to get a complete setup with meter bridge, 8 extra inputs (it only comes stock with 16 if I remember right) for under $3000. With SAW, I would imagine that would not happen. You need the software, 2 sound cards of some sort to get the I/O necessary, and some external preamps and possibly even some external converters depending on the purchase dicisions, and a 24 channel controller. It seems to me that this will cost at least $4500 or more to get into a "decent" setup as far as getting quality soundcards (which will make a bigger difference than SAW will as far as keeping your system more stable and allowing SAW to use a lower latency succesfully), decent converters, and decent preamps. With the O2R you can make one pruchase, and be done with it. It will be much easier to keep running properly, cost less, sound at least as good, and be MUCH easier to mantain.

There is one other factor to consider when doing live sound, nothing is ever the same every day. Somehow things are always a little bit different. Even when all you do is trun off the power and come back the next day. Things are always different. If you were counting on just blindly being able to recall a setting and have it work, than you are not going to have a good mix every day. If this is the case, than I would even suggest that you get a smaller O1v or something because obviously sound quality is not an issue. I do agree that 80% of your soundcheck could be already done just be recalling a mixer map, but there will always be some different stuff. Maybe the bass player brings a different bass, drummer hits a little harder, tunes his drums differently, guitar player changes his amp or pedal settings, new instrument cable etc... There are so many inconsistencies that are not recallable, that things will demand at least some attention EVERY time you turn the system on. Thats just kind of the way it is. Even with really good professional musicians and a great engineer and an awesome sound system, they still spend at least 15 minutes every day, even if all they did the night before was power down. Logically I could see how a person could think it should all be the same, but most people seem to underestimate how a bunch of very small differences combined can add to be quite a large difference in reality.

I really do hope that whatever system you pick will work well for you. Like I said earlier, on a personal level I think this whoile endeavor sounds cool and like a lot of fun. However, from a professional standpoint (which by the way I do run a pro audio company and have been involved in and even spec'ed many installs) it sounds like a real disaster waiting to happen. Not only is it more expensive, but it seems MUCH less reliable, and far less usable. Basically, this isn't your basement studio where if it doesn't work it only affects you. In this scenario, this is going to affect a lot of people. Good luck

 

[Tekker]

I'll keep this reply short, because I have a lot of homework for today....

I checked out the first two places you mentioned for the O2R (I had already checked ebay and there weren't any O2R's listed).... and I was able to find the O2R for under $2k like you mentioned, but they are a different (smaller) version than the $9k one I found before. The O2R's under $2k only have 16 faders instead of 24. But since they do have 24 inputs, is there a bank switch setting or something to to control the other 8 inputs? It would have been nice to have the 24 fader version.

The used 24-fader O2R's are over $8k, so the price didn't drop that much on the expensive version. The 16-fader O2R's new are around $3,000-$4,000 so the price did drop quite a bit on these.

-tkr

 

[tarnationsauce2]

I have this interface, it's awesome.
The MOTU 24i/o.
24 live inputs and 24 live outputs.
They are about 1400 new. Or if you look on eBay you can find the MOTU 24i (only has stereo outputs) for way cheaper like $600.
And they have a built on meter bridge.

 

[tarnationsauce2]

May I also add, I never have had a single problem with it. No skips or freezes, It is fluid, and I trust it as much as analog gear. Almost 0 latency. With a P4 3.6G 1GB system.
Here's what the software interface looks like (called cuemix):

 

[xstatic]

Cuemix is niot usable for the style of stuff being discussed in this thread since cuemix is pre DAW application in its routing. This means no compression, EQ, etc... and if you do decide to use those things, then the MOTU will certainly add some latency to the chain.

There are currently at least two Yamaha O2R consoles on Soundbroker.com that are already listed at less than $2000. When you find one that is considerably more expensive, that is the newer O2R96 version. It does have 25 faders instead of the 21 faders that the old one has. There is a bank switch for moving between the different banks of faders. Digital consoles are also kind of cool for setting up monitor mixes. You can program them so that you hit a button for mix 1 and the faders will all fly into place for mix 1 so at a glance you can quickly see where all the different levels are.

I agree that it would be nice to have the 24 fader version, but you have to ask yourself if it is really worth the price difference. Especially given its intended use. There are some other differences besides just the physical ones between the newer and older 02R's. I am not sure what they all are, but I do know that the older 02R was a pretty capable and complete digital console in its own right. I have actually been considering adding a couple of them to my rental stock for smaller systems so I can quit hauling around as many racks and large consoles on cheaper rentals. I also believe that the older O2R only comes stock with 16 xlr inoputs so you may have to purchase an expander card, but those sell for pretty cheap in various places.

 

[Tekker]

I agree that it would be nice to have the 24 fader version, but you have to ask yourself if it is really worth the price difference.

No, it's definitely not.... I was just hoping that the same 24-fader mixer that I was looking at could be found for under $2,000. I didn't know there were different versions, but that would more than explain the $7,000 price difference.... I have never seen anything loose it's value that much, other than a car of course.

There are some other differences besides just the physical ones between the newer and older 02R's. I am not sure what they all are, but I do know that the older 02R was a pretty capable and complete digital console in its own right.

Which version is the one you have used? I assume you've used the newer one?

-tkr