Live Mixing Part 2: The equipment...

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BrettB

BrettB

Well-known member
Hi all,

I went tonight to the concert hall of which I talked in the previous live mixing thread. So I finally saw the equipment I have to use on thursday.

The room is a hughe (I guess about 1500 ppl that can get easily in there) and has paralell walls and a very high ceiling. I kinda freaked when I entered with those parallel walls, but I noticed every inch of those walls are covered with acoustic panels (I mean that eggshaped mousse stuff which what they also make drum panels, sorry I don't known the correct tone). There is a slight reverb in the empty room, but with a very short decay and delay, so once it's filled with ppl I hope to have no problem with too much natural delay/reverb.

The board is an Allen & Heath GS-3: 16 channels and Mic pres, 8 groupes, 4 FX sends,... (see for the specs on http://www.allen-heath.co.uk/veterans/index.htm if you're interested). It is mainly a studio table, but there are enough pres (I need 14, and the 2 channels are used for the CD-player) and the EQ seems really ok so I think I can be happy with that board.


Which mices I can use I don't know: they weren't there: I just stated how much mikes I wanted were and he was going to provide them.

The rackmaterial is very poor though! I have only one Behringer (aaargghh:)) reverb unit (the virtualizer stuff) and the Behringer Feedback Destroyer for my monitor lines. I tried to talk about a compressor, but nobody (the owner of the equipment and the head of the organisation) seemed to think that was necesarry, so I'll have to do it with that equipment. I'm thinking of just putting some reverb on drums and vocals. Problem is they asked me to put lots of reverb on the vocals (it are Elvis covers, so they want to have that old 'too much reverb' sound:D) but I don't want to muddy the drums up, so I gotta find a compromise). Luckily they changed their backings, so the entire band are experienced members, so I won't have to correct some louzy performance:).

Also his speakers and amplification is weird: He seems to have several smaller speakers I don't know combined together and he insisted that they would provide a good sound, I'll just have to take his word for it. His monitors were to active JBL speakers (???) so that's a bit strange for me. I also have to think about how I gotta put them, because now I have 2 monitors for 6 musicians. Everybody wants another mix off course and also I have to reach everybody without having to crank the monitor level up to avoid feedback troubles.

I'll let you all know how I have done it thursday. If you have advice, please give it as soon as possible, it will be appreciated:D


Btw, anybody any suggestions on Reverb settings?


Greets!

Brett
 
HEre's one idea for starters; you have stereo returns for your aux, so you can use one of those for your CDplayer.

There's mute automation, so I'd suggest reading the manual of the board. I would, since this is something I never worked with.

Oh boy, I just looked at the board diagram, you really should print out the diagrams/manual, and make sure you're familiar with the board, the structure is not al that common. Be prepared.
From what I've seen it seem pretty workable though. You should be able to get a good result with it.

For the reverb: don't try going in with just the behringer efx. ALL the reverbs just suck. There is NO WAY to make it sound good. Believe me. It just plainly SUCKS. DON'T go there. Do whatever you can to get something else. I'm not kidding here. You can maybe get by using this one for the drums, but for vocals, no way. Especially not if you're gonna put some big reverb on them (I think you'll also need delay?).

(BTW, which band is it? One of my friends plays in an Elvis cover band...)

As for the mics, you should've specified what mics too. You don't wanna end up with SM57 for kick and bass. :eek: A talkback mic comes in handy too most of the times, and you should also try to get a spare SM57 and SM58 on every gig... You never know...

Just 2 monitors is gonna be very tight too. You're gonna need one for drums, so you've got one for the rest of the band. The singers and keyboards are VERY dependant of their monitors, guitars and bass should be able to get by with what's coming from their amps. Make sure that you organize the musicians in a way that allows them to play without monitors. Point the amps slightly inwards, maybe try to get the amps behind the drummer, eliminating the need for his monitors. Stuff like that.

The room seems good from your description. If they are confident that their system works ok, well, you gotta take their word for it I guess...

But you gotta put yourself in a better position next time. It's easier if you've got more experience and know what to expect, but if they are telling you that they don't think a compressor is necessary they obviously don't have that much livemixing experience themselves. Once you notice that, show off! Use difficult words, make it clear to them that you know what you are talking about, and that you are the one to tell them what's needed. Believe me, i'm kindof a shy guy myself, but when I'm talking about live mixing, anyone gets the message, wether they are pro's that I have to convince that I'm not just an overrated roadie or just people that don't know all that much that I have to convince that I'm the one to make decisions...

You really are the one that's gotta do it. So you should decide what you need and what's good enough. No compressors is workable, but expect to ride the faders. That virtualizer is not workable. If I had something better, you could've borrowed it, but the only efx I have are in my VS1880. And a modulizer (:eek: yikes) from a friend that I use as vocoder... Bah!

Oh, btw, did you make sure to have the DI's? Don't forget that man!!
 
Roel, thx for your reply

I did some search but I didn't find the manual of the board yet. On the Allen & Heath Website there's only some general info, but I still have some questions. One in particulary: the guy says he hooks his monitors up through hius group 3 and 4 but I don't immediately see how I can get a prefade mix of the group. I mean: the only thing I see on the Allen & Heath Website is that newt to each fader you got the rooting buttons to the groups, but does that mean I have to just send the same mix to the monitors than to my main L-R for the room? Probably not, but it are those things that can spare me much time. Luckily, the guy who owns all the stuff says he will be there to help in the afternoon: he will know his own mixer so he can give me advice on stuff like that.

You kinda make me scared with your talking about the Behringer effects. I knew they sucked, but the guy told me he never has to use another one in the room, the room sounded pretty ok, so I thought: Let's just use what I've got and try the best with it. But if it's that bad.... Ouch!! I didn't think he has got anything else and to go and renting something somewhere.. I'm not the person to pay that and I don't see the organisation guy today so..:eek: well, ehrm.. maybe I'll have to learn the hard way then..

The band is called Elvis And his Latest Flames. The only started their Elvis songs a couple of months ago. The drummer and keyboard player are good friends of mine, the other ones I don't know that well, but they are relatives of the drummer.

I always bring my own talback mikes, and there will also be some spares. When he really brings in some bad mikes, I can make the keyboard player bring some of his, he got some great mikes, so no problem with that.

The room is btw a filmstudio! He recorded some soap opera stuff there (Pecies of crap like nonkel Jef, Spoed, Familie,.. were recorded there:D) and the guy used to have a recording studio (Tamara King) that had kind of a reputation. Thinking about his past, and hearing him talk about his board indicate that he knows what he is talking about, but than his weird choice of Behringer FX and the lack of compression ... Also his speakers didn't seem that impressive, but I'll hear that thursday afternoon during soundcheck:D.

The monitors ae idd a pain in the ass!! I'll try to ge their amps in a right position so I'll see what I can do.

You may have a point about putting myself in a better position. I was just kinda overwhelmed by ther hu hughe room, and I get paid properly:D so I didn't dare to take over all the decisions. I asked several questions and let him know that I knew my stuff, so they wouldn't think I was ignorant, so I think they don't doubt me. But idd, when he replied to me I didn't needed another effects unit or a compressor I had to talk back. But instead I just said it was OK. Beginners fault I guess:D.

I'll need 3 DI and he only has one, but I can lend the two others, so that's no problem.

I'll keep you up to date!
 
Well, if he's there to help you with the soundcheck, and you have a complete afternoon for that, you'll get something acceptable. ;) Just the efx, I really hate them. Coudn't find one preset that sounded even a bit decent, and there's only a little bit of editing possibilities. I don't even know what you can edit. There's 2 parameters, a variation and hi and low pass or something. Get the manual if you want to fiddle around with it.
 
I can soundcheck the drums in the afternoon, for the other instruments I have an hour/an hour and a halve.

I downloaded the manual, it seems not that difficult to use. I also downloaded the feedback destroyer anual: that unit seems at first sight very handy. It searches itself for those nasty frequencies in your monitor line and you can adjust the filters so that some of them keep searching for new frequencies.
 
It's not a difficult unit, but having no idea what preset is what and what parameter does what is really not nice when you're in the middle of mixing a concert. I had no time to try out other settings. Mix one band, get the mics out of the way, setup the mics for the next band, long linecheck/quick soundcheck maybe, and start the next concert... Now if I just had a nice lexicon or TC I could just look for a preset that sounded good. No such thing on the virtualizer. All useless! It was kinda looking for what sounded not too awfull...
 
His monitors were to active JBL speakers (???) so that's a bit strange for me.
Click to expand...

I thought you'd be happy to have them active...wouldn't it be easier..I use active RCFs for foldbacks..beautiful...

For the reverb: don't try going in with just the behringer efx. ALL the reverbs just suck. There is NO WAY to make it sound good. Believe me. It just plainly SUCKS. DON'T go there.
Click to expand...

Whats so wrong with Behringer (Virtualizer??) for live applications..works very good if you pick the right presets

Brett- make sure you've got enough mic stands :D

good luck mate...let us know how you go
 
Roker1 said:
Whats so wrong with Behringer (Virtualizer??) for live applications..works very good if you pick the right presets
Click to expand...
The fact that only 2 of the presets are reasonably usable and that even those don't sound very good?? I tried every reverb preset in the thing, while monitoring with headphones, and if it was usable I tried it. Didn't like any of 'em. BAH! And the editing just plainly sucks. What have you got? Variation or something? I don't want no stinkin' variation, I want the density, decay time, room size, reverb time, anything but 'variation'. BAH! I HATE 'EM!! And they sound processed. I don't like processors that make whatever comes out of it sound like it comes out of a processor.

Maybe I'm a bit spoiled after working on alot of nice rigs with sometimes even a TC M2000 in it, but there isn't one processor I hate more as the virtualizer. The modulizer probably comes ridiculously close though. :D
 
Roker1 said:


I thought you'd be happy to have them active...wouldn't it be easier..I use active RCFs for foldbacks..beautiful...



Whats so wrong with Behringer (Virtualizer??) for live applications..works very good if you pick the right presets

Brett- make sure you've got enough mic stands :D

good luck mate...let us know how you go
Click to expand...

It was just I never saw those JBL's being used as monitors.

BThe virtualizer: I'll let you know my thoughts when I have used it tomorrow evening:).

about the mic stands: the guy assured me that there was enough small stuff, like cables and stands,... so I'm not responsible for that one:D
 
BrettB said:
I can soundcheck the drums in the afternoon, for the other instruments I have an hour/an hour and a halve.

I downloaded the manual, it seems not that difficult to use. I also downloaded the feedback destroyer anual: that unit seems at first sight very handy. It searches itself for those nasty frequencies in your monitor line and you can adjust the filters so that some of them keep searching for new frequencies.
Click to expand...

This feedback destroyer isn't the Behringer Shark DSP is it? I hope not for your sake...

Scott
 
BThe virtualizer: I'll let you know my thoughts when I have used it tomorrow evening.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you'll find it pretty useful Brett...and hope u r not spoiled like Roel;)

Good luck man
 
I just got back from the gig: It's 3.15 am and I have to get up in the morning (have lots of work to do) so I'll post a thread later about how it went.

thx for the tips you all gave me...
 
Hi Brett,
Back in the old days ehco was almost the only effect available, plate or chamber. To overcome the problem of echo messing up you mix, echo send was sent over another taperecorder where you pick your echo feed from the playback head, creating a delay of appr. half a second. Varispeed was not invented so had few options, 7,5 ips= long delay, 15 ips=short delay.
By bringing you tape uot back into the console you could feed back the signal and create a slap echo.

This creates a gap between the vocal and reverb, enough to hear the lyrics. Drums were normally one or two mikes, one o/h and maybe a kick. Although the kick was not the important thing for the rythm, it was the slapping of the Bass and rythm guitar.
But they don't play like this anymore..........

hope the eavning went well
rgds
 
Let us know how it went! I'm curious!

And how did you like the virtualizer? Let me know!
 
hi Roel,

I posted a new thread (the live mixing show) were I talk about the job.

cu

Brett
 
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