Limiter for tracking needed: options?

[Chris F]

I do a lot of stereo recording of grand piano and archtop guitar, and the players I play with and record have an astounding ability to spike tracks with sudden transients even when I've asked them to pound as hard as they can when I set the levels to try to err on the safe side. So it looks like I'd do well to have a decent stereo limiter on hand for tracking just to avoid spikes.

The instruments will be recorded with either a pair of B1's (archtop played with metal fingerpicks) or a pair of M-Audio Lunas (piano), all going through DMP3 pres into DP4. My questions are:

1) Which compressors out there are suited for this kind of application? I've heard great things about the RNC and it's easily within my price range, but I've also heard tell that it's not especially "fast"...and considering that I'm basically tracking percussion instruments as far as transients are concerned, the release time isn't especially of concern.

2) Which compressors at or below about $150 per channel are the most transparent? I'm not looking to color the sound, just avoid distortion.

3) What kind of settings are optimal for this application?

Thanks in advance!

 

[SonicAlbert]

Chris,

I think the standard answer you will get for a transparent compressor in your price range will be the RNC. But it sounds like what you need is a brickwall limiter rather than a compressor.

What I use is a Waves L2 Ultramaximizer, and it works wonderfully to make sure any unexpected spikes don't ruin a take.

An analog limiter that could be used for that purpose is the Aphex Dominator 720.

Unfortunately, both these are considerably over your budget, making the RNC one of the few choices. Another possibility would be a pair of Aphex Expressors. I really love those things, and they certianly are transparent.

 

[Farview]

If you are recording in 24 bit, you can just turn down the record levels. There is no need to get close enough to 0db to be in danger of spiking it. Remember, if you peak at - 35, you are still getting more resolution than a CD has. Just turn it down.

 

[Chris F]

Thanks, but I'm recording in 16 bit most of the time, and I find it difficult to get out of the mindset of tracking at least a reasonably decent signal level - especially considering my room, while good, is far from perfect. I can't explain the difference very well, but when I record quietly and then boost in DP with the Trim plug, the sound is noticeably different than when I track at a slighly higher level. Are you saying this difference is merely psychoacoustics?

Albert - Typically, there will only be one spike on a take, but in the digital world, that's all it takes. Could I use an RNC for this purpose set to about -4 or -5 DB just as insyrance, or is it too slow to catch the transients?

 

[Farview]

If you are at 16 bit, you do need a limiter. Look on ebay for an old DBX 1066 with the peak-stop limiters built in.

 

[SonicAlbert]

It sounds like you need a brickwall limiter. "The peak stops here" kind of deal.

Farview, do you think that 1066 is good enough? Also, is it possible to use the limiter on the 1066 while bypassing the compression?

 

[Farview]

You just turn the ratio down to 1/1. The limiter is quick enough to do the job. I am assuming that it is only a safety measure and nothing will be run into the limiter as a matter of course. It sounds better than clipping and you can use the compressor as well.

 

[Chris F]

Thanks for the replies, guys. So the general consensus is that the RNC is too slow to help me out in a useful way? If so, okay...but I was really hoping it could help, since it gets such great reviews.

I'm looking around at the DBX 1066. Are there any other units for this I could be looking at on a budget, or is that about it? A compressor might not be a terrible thing, since to get a "natural" sound on the piano (to my taste, anyway), I have to back the mics a bit further outside of the lid than I used to, which kind of dilutes the signal. Anyway, if there are other units I could be looking at, I'd love to hear about them!

 

[XLR]

Chris, I think the RNC could do what you need and pretty invisibly in supernice mode if you set up the levels carefully. It's not a brick wall, but it works predictably, with a good sound, and I'd think with a little care you'd never have to worry about overs. I’ve got two of them and use them for just that when needed. I heard some of your recordings on another forum - don't remember if it was PSW or Gearslutz, and you do some nice work.

Just my 2c.

Tim

 

[Chris F]

Thanks Tim. When you use it as a limiter, what kind of instruments are you recording, and how do you set the levels? Piano is the worst for spikes, but archtop isn't far behind - I sure like the idea of "transparent", since all of these guys play really well. I'm realy working on finding some settings that work, and going for more "plug and play".

 

[XLR]

Chris F said:

When you use it as a limiter, what kind of instruments are you recording, and how do you set the levels?

I've used the RNC a lot on flamenco guitar, and it's helpful in letting me get a hot level while controlling the intensity of the rasgueados (loud strumming) that tends to spike everything otherwise.

As far as level control, I set the threshold so it comes in only during louder passages that go far above the norm, and with a ratio that is protective of the 0 safety zone. Got to do a run-through of a performance to check it, then set the levels figuring that the players will play a little hotter in the heat of the moment during the real take. If you start around a 10:1 ratio in Supernice mode, with the attack set to about 9 o'clock, it's pretty failsafe. Keeping the release slow (.5 sec.) prevents most audible artifacts. When the RNC is not kicking in gain reduction, it's completely invisible to my ear. And in Supernice mode it reduces the gain when needed without squashing the sound in any way - just levels it out.

If you can work out a way to track at 24 bits, it'll greatly reduce the need for limiting that you need now to keep that full sound you get at 16 bits at a hot level. And in that situation, the RNC is still a great help for live recording as a safety leveler.

Tim

 

[Chris F]

I've used the RNC a lot on flamenco guitar, and it's helpful in letting me get a hot level while controlling the intensity of the rasgueados (loud strumming) that tends to spike everything otherwise.

As far as level control, I set the threshold so it comes in only during louder passages that go far above the norm, and with a ratio that is protective of the 0 safety zone. Got to do a run-through of a performance to check it, then set the levels figuring that the players will play a little hotter in the heat of the moment during the real take. If you start around a 10:1 ratio in Supernice mode, with the attack set to about 9 o'clock, it's pretty failsafe. Keeping the release slow (.5 sec.) prevents most audible artifacts. When the RNC is not kicking in gain reduction, it's completely invisible to my ear. And in Supernice mode it reduces the gain when needed without squashing the sound in any way - just levels it out.

That was an excellent and clear reply. Thank you! One last bit - people complain about the RNC not being a "dual mono" compresser...can a single RNP handle a stereo source like 2 mics on a piano?

If you can work out a way to track at 24 bits, it'll greatly reduce the need for limiting that you need now to keep that full sound you get at 16 bits at a hot level. And in that situation, the RNC is still a great help for live recording as a safety leveler.

Hmmm, I know my Masterlink can do 24 bit, but I don't think the MOTU 1224 (my current interface) can, so I'll just take your advice on the RNC for now. Thanks again!

Tim[/QUOTE]

 

[mixsit]

Chris, I hesitated to jump in earlier if you wanted something to cover tracking percussion instruments 100%, 'clippers already having been covered. But the RNC can be very fast. In normal mode (not SuperMice ) it can remove most all of the front end of a snare for example -to the ear. I'd have to expect that at some point something could get through not being a brickwall', if pushed hard enough. (On the other hand hard clippers are not a completely free lunch either). Maybe, what did happen to get through might be so brief that a litle a/d clip wouldn't even be heard..? (I guess that since I haven't actually tried to push it in this particular roll... Maybe someone else can jump in here.
Any way you can try one out?
Wayne

 

[mixsit]

...can a single RNP handle a stereo source like 2 mics on a piano?

Yes, on anything where both channels can move together.

 

[XLR]

people complain about the RNC not being a "dual mono" compresser...can a single RNP handle a stereo source like 2 mics on a piano?

Yeah, it's not useable for two mono tracks with different settings. Benefit is though in keeping the stereo imaging balanced with true stereo mic'ing. The channels are linked, so the threshold, ratio and attack settings happen on both channels cued by whichever channel is hotter at the moment. It's a good thing for stereo room recording, or even 2 close mic's on a single instrument. I wouldn't use a single RNC for close mic's on two different instruments though.

Tim