Life After Indie (or) What's the Next Step?

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This was emailed to me today....

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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:31:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "LeBron Burros" <bmack_104@yahoo.com>
Subject: Radio Airplay
To: "LeBron Burros" <bmack_104@yahoo.com>

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Be sure to check out www.looking4airplay.com if your looking for national radio airplay..or if your getting some and want to spread your record for even more!

Radio Airplay Promotion $350 or less!!
 
Another disturbing trend that is starting to take place... many of the label "parent companies" are buying up music venues. With the popularity of the internet and home recording ever increasing... it is becoming possible for bands to make decent money without any label involvement. So the thinking is if they control the clubs... they can control who plays... and limit it to the groups THEY want to promote. Theoretically translating to better sales.

I know... it sounds like some crazy conspiracy theory. But I've seen venues that used to specialize in national underground talent and local groups do a "format" change and become nearly impossible for a local band to get into, and start doing nothing but label "up and comers." Turns out to be more than a coincidence.

Also, on the radio bit. A Label can't pay a station to play a song... but... they can buy a "4 minute" commercial block and provide the audio. Think radio infomercial... with no disclaimer. :mad: The Commercial audio just happens to be XXXX's latest song. And THAT was perfectly legal.

Geez I hate the "industry"... gotta stop before I really get going.
 
that sounds like a losing proposition....

Q,

is the touring supposed to expose you directly to potential fans or indirectly?

I went on tour with my band. There was 1 person who showed up in D.C. 3 showed up in Chapel Hill. I think there were 5 in savannah..... I would still do it again though.
 
mark4man said:
OK...

Here's our story:

Four, 50 something Jazz Rock hotshots (two of which come out of retirement), form a studio band; & record, master, produce & release a 9 song CD. The songwriting, musicianship, vocals, etc. are all top-flite original. The album graphics look professional; & the folded insert booklet is laid out very nicely. We devise a cool sounding record company name w/ a cool looking cartoon logo, which is also printed professionally onto the CD surface. We replicate 1000 copies...they sound & look great.

So then...we begin to solicit radio stations around the good ol' USA. We send out professionally worded e-mail inquiries to 400 (so far) radio stations that fit our genre (Jazz Rock.) Of those, about 15% respond favorably; & we send them CD's, along w/ a state-of-the-art One-Sheet.

To date...we have sold 1 CD...which means the radio stations are not spinning our tracks. We send out follow-ups; & get no response. We've also solicited about 40 magazines & e-zines, along w/ follow-ups...& no one wants to give us a review. We have joined SonicBids & availed ourselves of their resources...spent a bunch of money...& have had no doors open. We have our own (web) site, a myspace site; & an indie911 site.

So my question is:

If we now abandon the indie world...& approach the major record companies...either individually or through networks like Taxi, etc...& happen to get picked up by a label...what do they do for their artists?

How do they seemingly accomplish having the upper hand w/ radio stations...are they able to twist the arms of DJs for airplay, or more realistically get instant consideration on airplay requests due to their status as biggies?

How about brick-& mortar sales as pushed by the majors...how does that work?

And of course the 'bottom line' question is...how much does a band or artist forfeit when they sign w/ a major? One of the reasons we wanted to push the indie approach was due to the fact that you hear rumors of majors getting 90% of all sales proceeds.

Not sure where we should turn at this point. We have a great product, but it seems like either nobody cares, or that there really are invisible road blocks to success.

Anybody have any thoughts on this? [No tears or regrets, here...I'm not bitchin; & so far it's at least been fun. I'm just wondering where to turn next, that's all.]

Thanks,

mw4man
Project One
Brick & Mortar companies buy their music through a series of catalogs of course, but they stock the ones that sell, and don't stock or stock less of the ones that don't sell that well. If your more well known, you would have a better chance of being stocked by like Best Buy, because they know they will make money off of you.

You forfeit a lot when signing with a major label, however they usually treat you somewhat right (compared with having nothing and having something that is). they put you in the studio, they make your music marketable, and they release it. They make the money, they get paid back & you get money once you recoup costs.

However, to shop successfully to a label, your going to need more than just 1 CD sale to show.

What I do for my artists, is I pay for lodging, food, everyday spending money, pay for recording time, engineer's, producers, manufacturing, marketing/advertisements, and all the other little costs that comes along with a release. Of course, since I would be spending the money to get them heard , I only see fair that I get the money back (recoup) and some. Also, the artists need to understand that selling 3 million copies, even with them having to recoup, and at a low rate, they still would bank in a nice chunk of change.

you see.... it's either you do it on your own with your 1% of their budget backing you. Or you get signed to a major & have millions of dollars backing you. They are investing in the artist, therefore they make sure the artist is on the same level. Therefore the artist needs to follow their rules to get rich, or there's the door....
 
FALKEN said:
that sounds like a losing proposition....

Q,

is the touring supposed to expose you directly to potential fans or indirectly?

I went on tour with my band. There was 1 person who showed up in D.C. 3 showed up in Chapel Hill. I think there were 5 in savannah..... I would still do it again though.


Both of them
 
steve.h...

Not tryin' to start a rou w/ you...& I do think your advice on the friends thing is spot on (which I thank you for)...but I don't see your site as looking any more professional than ours. Don't forget..."attractive" is in the eye of the beholder. We have a creative photo montage as a background (w/ the opacity washed out...to bring out the contrast w/ the tables); & our table layout looks just fine. [The background loads a bit slow, I know...but it's artsy (which is an important aspect of music presentation for us old hippie types...you know...art?...going hand in hand w/ music...which is an art?)] I've seen myspace sites by big recording acts that don't look as nice as ours (that's no criteria, I know...but...) You have merchandise & friends & a video, which is great. (We're working on a few videos presently, in fact.)

Our music is presented in the form of two-minute sound clips which highlight the main movements in each tune...I should probably swap songs around more frequently, tho...I'm sure variety helps. But that format gives listeners the basics they need.

I think maybe success (however it's defined) is based more on exposure (which you touched on) rather than perceived professionalism. Seems to me that if just one California disc jockey likes your work & begins to spin your tracks…larger scale airplay can take off & sales with it. I'm not so sure gigging yourself to death or having a fan base helps to the extent that radio exposure does (but then again, I'm still poor & looking for the answer.) I'll work on the friends angle, tho. Thanks again.

mark4man

[BTW - Thanks also to evryone else.]
 
mark4man said:
steve.h...

Not tryin' to start a rou w/ you...& I do think your advice on the friends thing is spot on (which I thank you for)...but I don't see your site as looking any more professional than ours. Don't forget..."attractive" is in the eye of the beholder. We have a creative photo montage as a background (w/ the opacity washed out...to bring out the contrast w/ the tables); & our table layout looks just fine. [The background loads a bit slow, I know...but it's artsy (which is an important aspect of music presentation for us old hippie types...you know...art?...going hand in hand w/ music...which is an art?)] I've seen myspace sites by big recording acts that don't look as nice as ours (that's no criteria, I know...but...) You have merchandise & friends & a video, which is great. (We're working on a few videos presently, in fact.)

Our music is presented in the form of two-minute sound clips which highlight the main movements in each tune...I should probably swap songs around more frequently, tho...I'm sure variety helps. But that format gives listeners the basics they need.

I think maybe success (however it's defined) is based more on exposure (which you touched on) rather than perceived professionalism. Seems to me that if just one California disc jockey likes your work & begins to spin your tracks…larger scale airplay can take off & sales with it. I'm not so sure gigging yourself to death or having a fan base helps to the extent that radio exposure does (but then again, I'm still poor & looking for the answer.) I'll work on the friends angle, tho. Thanks again.

mark4man

[BTW - Thanks also to evryone else.]

you don't have to defend yourself or your choices. but if you ask for criticism, here you will get it. and I *really* don't mean to sound harsh. but professionalism is important - if you are unwilling to change, if you are unwilling to spend a little of your own money, and if you are unwilling to tour for next to nothing for a couple years, you're not going to be able to make a living unless you know someone in the business.

major "artists" have entire marketing companies calculating their every move. professionalism is important. perception is EVERYTHING.

if you are a band, you must "gig yourself to death". no question. radio is NOT the be all, end all. it's a combination of touring, broadcast media, print media, and luck. you need to be working every angle. you have to live it.

I work for the biggest radio company in the U.S. I've had my music played nationally on MTV, I've done plenty of radio and tv interviews, I've toured. after 2 years word of mouth is finally spreading and I get a decent amount of money. I still have a lot to do.
 
4 of hte 70s best undiscovered jazz and rock artists is a bold statement
 
DAS19 said:
4 of hte 70s best undiscovered jazz and rock artists is a bold statement

These guys/girl are clearly living in their own world: no need to disabuse them of their fantasies :)
 
mark4man said:
Seems to me that if just one California disc jockey likes your work & begins to spin your tracks…larger scale airplay can take off & sales with it. I'm not so sure gigging yourself to death or having a fan base helps to the extent that radio exposure does (but then again, I'm still poor & looking for the answer.)

But how do you get that disc jockey to spin your music?

1. You have a large promotional force (i.e. - major record label marketing/promotions dept) with $$$ & connections to get your music in the right hands. Payola is 100% real and in-effect, despite legal efforts to curtail it. Radio stations receive tons of unsolicited albums every week. Someone at the station has to listen to that album and catalog it before it's going to get played. You have to grease the wheels.

2. You have a large fanbase who are continually calling and requesting your music. However, if you don't have #1 and you don't gig, you will have a tough time building a fanbase. If you can name one act who are regularly played on the radio who don't tour and/or have the support of #1, I'd like to know who they are.
 
OK...

Please...stop responding...everybody.

See...here's the trouble...I log an honest post looking for genuine advice, but someone always has to take it to a personal level...to the lowest common denominator.

"4 of the 70's best undiscovered artists" is a bold statement ??? You f_ckin' bet it is...it's promo language from our one-sheet, mo. Promo language is just that...it's designed to herald the best of what the music has to offer to the listener. Now I have Aholes tellin' everybody my band's in a fantasy world? You're like a little kid, ya' know...with a statement like that...just shut the f_ck up...please.

[or...better yet...how's 'bout I find you music on myspace & make some "subjective criticisms" of my own?]
 
Last edited:
mark4man said:
OK...

Please...stop responding...everybody.

See...here's the trouble...I log an honest post looking for genuine advice, but someone always has to take it to a personal level...to the lowest common denominator.

"4 of the 70's best undiscovered artists" is a bold statement ??? You f_ckin' bet it is...it's promo language from our one-sheet, mo. Promo language is just that...it's designed to herald the best of what the music has to offer to the listener. Now I have Aholes tellin' everybody my band's in a fantasy world? You're like a little kid, ya' know...just shut the f_ck up...please.

Sir, you're asking for advice about what major labels look for in their artists. Nowadays, labels are looking for the "full package", they don't do 'development deals' anymore (for the most part). Record labels are in the business of finding sell-able product and doing everything in their power to convince the general public that you're the 'next big thing'. From that point of view, your job as a band is to show the labels that you've got the look, the sound, the fans, and the live show. You've gotta sell CD's on your own in order for labels to invest in your band. Nobody's gonna sell an idea.

I may be younger than you, but that actually gives me an advantage 'cause I'm growing up and learning about how labels work *now*, vs. how they worked when you were getting into music. Please don't take my comments offensively: I used harsh language to get my point across; to disabuse you of your notion that labels are the solution to your problem, not to dissuade you from going all-out and trying to make it! :)

[and I never said anything about your music 'cause it's not about the music: it's about the full package!]
 
mark4man said:
See...here's the trouble...I log an honest post looking for genuine advice, but someone always has to take it to a personal level...to the lowest common denominator.

You posted looking for advice, and you got it. It may not be what you wanted to hear, but you definitely have received some good advice. The question you have to ask yourself from a marketing standpoint is, "Why would a Radio Station/Record Label/Person with $ to burn on a CD take a chance on us?" What's in it for them (the consumer)? Honestly, good music is not enough, at least not for the DJ/Label. I don't want to discourage you, but you asked what else you need to do ("what's the next step?"), but you seem unwilling to accept the response. Sure, you can try to get a major label deal, but I suspect you will get no better response than you've gotten from the radio stations because you haven't proven yourselves to be/have a marketable product.

Oh, and if you can't handle a little criticism (personal or not), you're in the wrong business.
 
scrubs said:
...Oh, and if you can't handle a little criticism (personal or not), you're in the wrong business.

I was going to say something to that effect as well. Indie music is all about helping eachother out, having fun, and making great music. Corporate music is about doing whatever it takes to sell as much as possible. Indie music is really hard to make a decent living at. Corporate music can be easy if you're willing to sell your soul. Which do you choose?
 
steve.h...

Sorry I came down on you so hard, man...I thought your words were in the "dismissal" category...I stand corrected...sorry.

But my original thinking was that we were offering a complete package...a complete CD...complete music & complete artwork. I think I even mentioned something about the indie artist acting as their own sub-contractor...whereby all the major record company has to do is pick up the package & reprint the CD surface w/ their own label. When members came back & said that's not enough...that we also have to have some actual sales under our belt...well...that's good advice...& I said I appreciated it. So I resolved (& the band resolved) that we would stay as indies for now & keep on pluggin' away...but members kept coming back w/ more & more critique...that's all. Sorry.


scrubs...

That's where I think we disagree...it IS about good music...& it should ONLY be about good music (& I'm saying this w/ the full knowledge that it's not the way it is.) It's a philosophical thing...& I'm still an optimist when it comes to such things. One disc jockey can make a difference, I think. Why should a DJ's ears & outlook be any different than yours? When you hear something that inspires you, you don't say to yourself: "I'm not listening to this because it wasn't marketed properly"...you say: "this is TITS...I like it!" There doesn't have to be anything in it for the DJ to spin it. If he likes it; & if he believes in it...that's all that should matter. & I just can't bring myself to believe that it's all business & all payola...there still has to be some genuine people out there...that's all.

mark4man
 
mark4man said:
scrubs...

That's where I think we disagree...it IS about good music...& it should ONLY be about good music (& I'm saying this w/ the full knowledge that it's not the way it is.) It's a philosophical thing...& I'm still an optimist when it comes to such things. One disc jockey can make a difference, I think. Why should a DJ's ears & outlook be any different than yours? When you hear something that inspires you, you don't say to yourself: "I'm not listening to this because it wasn't marketed properly"...you say: "this is TITS...I like it!" There doesn't have to be anything in it for the DJ to spin it. If he likes it; & if he believes in it...that's all that should matter. & I just can't bring myself to believe that it's all business & all payola...there still has to be some genuine people out there...that's all.

mark4man

Sure, but "should" is a very idealistic term. This is reality. You're assuming than any dj at any radio station even listened to your disc. Why would they do that? What sets you apart from the other 100 random cds that came into the station that day? There are only so many hours in a day to critique new music. Why should they pop yours in on the drive home after a long day? It might mean something if you were able to say that your band packs the hottest jazz clubs in the northeast, you've got 10,000 myspace friends, and have sold out your initial pressing of 1000 CDs. You asked why you're not selling CDs, and I'm wondering why you made 1000 CDs if you don't have any fans yet?
 
well, because I don't send CDs to radio stations unless I first solicit that station. Only when the station replies to an initial e-mail inquiry from me, whereby I ask them for a contact & an address (& their reply provides that contact & address along w/ a request for the CD)...do I send a CD to that contact & address.

If they're gonna then not listen to a CD they told me to send...well then just f_ck the whole damn system.
 
I think this whole thread boils down to basic marketing. The first questions you must ask yourself when you have an idea for a "product" are, "is this a marketable product (i.e. does it fill an unmet need)?" "who are the target market?" and "how do we get the product to the target market?"

That is one area where the home studio/recording revolution (as much as I love it and indulge in it myself) has failed. People can now create a relatively finished "product" without a viable market and with no means to get that product to the market. The internet can provide a means, via downloads and CD sales, but means are useless if the market doesn't exist or the product is not marketable.

Back in the "Good old days," bands/artists had one of 2 avenues:

1. Work your ass off building a following (by gigging nonstop & self-promoting) and make the record labels come to them when they realize that there is money to be made from getting behind a band with an existing market. Although bands may have had a short demo to sell at shows and send to record labels, they generally did not go into the studio to make a full album until they were approached by a record label who offered them financial backing and had the marketing team in place to get the album into stores and onto the radio (not to mention, promoting tours, etc.).

or

2. Being well-connected/Hopping on an existing trend. Throughout the history of popular music, artists have been "made" by record labels/studios/etc. and they have the money to create the market and drive the trends. Then, touring/promoting/etc. This is the Britney/Boy-Band mentality, but goes back to the Monkees and all trend-driven bubblegum goop. It is safe and it sells...over and over again.

I don't see how you fall into either of these categories. You have no following, no connections, and you don't fit into the "teen bubblegum" mold. You are mistaken to think that the music is enough. It is the music, plus the marketing. Obviously, you have made attempts to market yourself with your CD, website, one sheet, and by sending your music to radio stations. However, you have to ask if you are even marketable at all? I would contend, and I mean no offense by this, that the market for any music made by aging hipsters who don't play live is extremely, minimally small.

I would also contend that CDs/Albums and Radio are both fading into obscurity as "products" or means to reach any substantial audience.
 
you're going to hear "no" a lot, but you can't win if you don't play the game. you do, however, have quite a bit of work to do to be "successful". unless successful is playing a few local shows and selling cds to friends and family.
 
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