Levels and metering - analog v/s digital

J

jjitter

New member
Hi everyone,

I have been trying to find information on mixing, especially reading levels on a firewire connected analog mixer. In my case I use NI maschine, Cubase to sequence, with Yamaha n12 taking in all the instruments. I was wondering how do firewire mixers and their meters work? For e.g, when an instrument is recorded in Cubase via firewire with gain on the mixer till 0db, the Cubase meter also shows 0db (post recording or even while monitoring an instrument through cubase while recording). How does a dbfs meter of cubase show the same value as an analog signal was showing before recording?

What confuses me is when I set the instrument gain on the mixer to show 0dbu on the meter (before recording), the software also shows 0db after recording. How is that possible that a meter before A to D( analog meter) and a meter after A to D (digital meter) shows the same values and vice versa? Is it that I should pull the fader down on the daw track to -18dbfs after recording (A to D)?
I am clear till getting an instrument into the mixer, getting a hot signal upto 0db. But after recording when it goes in the digital domain, and playing it back through the mixer(i/o), what scale is the meter showing now? dbu or dbfs? Did D to A happen before the meter? or no D to A happen up until audio goes out to the speakers?

Or if we are working entirely in the digital domain just with a sampler, here is a straight forward question -

If i see my instrument/sample level reaching 0db, should I pull down the level first to -18db by default for headroom and just assume that since a software is always digital, everything is dbfs in this domain, like a lesson in audio? And then get my mixes upto -12dbfs with processing etc? If yes, then which fader be pulled down to -18dbfs? the instrument or the master fader?

Here are the meters when i sent a 1khz sine wave at -18dbfs from cubase to n12.
daw meter.jpgMixer meter.jpg


Any help will be appreciated. Thank you!
 
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If recording digital, set your channel fader to 0db (unity). The -18db thing is what your signal from the instrument should be, so just record at that level or somewhere near there.

If you're recording analog get the meter around 0vu. If you want to import it to digital later do line input into the DAW mixing all tracks down at once.
 
What's hitting 0dBVU? Both those pictures show dBFS metering. A VU meter will have positive numbers above 0dB.

You need to specify RMS/average or peak levels. I tend to target -18dBFS as an average level during tracking. Drums can have such huge differences between peak and average levels that I set them by peaks, generally around -12dBFS or so.
 
The Yamaha N12 is a digital mixer. There is nothing analog about it, which is why it has meters calibrated in DBfs.
 
Farview said:
The Yamaha N12 is a digital mixer. There is nothing analog about it, which is why it has meters calibrated in DBfs.
Click to expand...

but here is the question - Before recording, when it is just Instrument > n12 Mixer > Speakers (when nothing is digital yet i am guessing), how can the meter show dbfs values? does it do A to D before hitting the meter?

wow its amazing to get such good tips in such a short time!
 
The signal goes through the preamps and then right into the AD converter. Everything after that is digital. There are DA converters at all of the analog outputs. Everything that happens in between is digital. All of the eq, effects, routing, etc is done digitally.

Since the board is digital, a dbfs scale is appropriate for the meters.
 
true but when there is no daw/computer and its just the instrument in the mixer(analog in), mixer outputting to speakers(analog out). I dont see anything digital here. So how does a dbfs meter on a mixer function in this case?

Thanks again!
 
Inside the mixer, it's all digital.

Just like when you plug a mic into a computer interface and listen to the results on the speakers that are plugged into that interface.

The mixer is nothing but a computer and interface with a bunch of dedicated knobs and switches. The only thing analog about it are the inputs and outputs.
 
Farview said:
Inside the mixer, it's all digital.
Click to expand...
So as soon as anything goes in the mixer the first thing that happens is A to D, irrespective of anything?

A to D right after the in to the mixer, D to A right before the outs to the speakers? So are the EQs on the mixer also Eq'ing a digital signal, since you say A to D happens right after the preamp? I used to think everything remains analog on this mixer until its time to send audio through firewire.

Sorry for being a bit of a noob.
 
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Exactly. The first thing that happens is the signal is it gets digitized. It stays digital until right before the outputs. The EQ is digital, the routing is digital, the fader volume is digital, etc...

It's basically an interface, control surface, and DAW (without editing or recording capabilities), all in one box.
 
Cool.. But coming back to the dbfs topic and working entirely in the digital domain - since there is no such thing as input gain when working just with a laptop and a sampler, should I just pull down the sample level to read -18db on a meter? Because the only 'level' control I have before this knob is the velocities of the notes, unlike analog where there is a input gain before the fader. maschine.JPG
 
Depending on which daw you are using, there might be a channel gain that you can use to turn down the level feeding the channel.

Here is where it gets a bit tricky. -18dbfs is a good average level, it is not a great peak level. On percussive sounds, like drums, you can set the peak around -8 dbfs. Meanwhile, things with a long decay and/or no transient (like a violin) should be set to about -18dbfs on the sustain.
 
Oh yes the input trim in Cubase when using a maschine sampler as a vst. Neat! But what about cases when i am just using the sampler with its software, without a DAW? Should I pull down the faders to -18, or do

I have been auditioning my performances on pads and controllers to see my peaks and set levels accordingly. i manage to get an rms of around -16db but the drum peaks go as high as -3. Well not always.:guitar:
 
Drums can peak that high without a problem.

If you aren't recording, what are you doing with the performance? If you are simply playing live, the soundman will likely take your level and deal with it accordingly.
 
Farview said:
Drums can peak that high without a problem.
Click to expand...

True, but I like to leave a bit more headroom on the chance a drummer will get more excited during a real take. Of course that's with real drums. With MIDI drums 128 is the max so they're less unpredictable.
 
Well more than recording, i sequence midi using samplers/vsts, which have 16 outs sometimes like the maschine. When these are enabled, 16 buses are created in the DAW. Now whatever you have sequenced in the vst sampler can be routed to these DAW buses and they can be further routed etc etc..

In these situations, is it ok to straight away use the trim on these buses and mix or do you recommend recording audio via these buses and then use the trim to get -16, -18? Was thinking since everything is digital in this case, can the recording audio part be skipped, and mix(getting -18db etc.) be started straight on these buses?
Thanks again! @farview
 
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