Let's Talk Aux Busses

  • Thread starter Thread starter dachay2tnr
  • Start date Start date
Yep, I was wrong... I looked it up, if its pre fader, the verb stays even when you turn down the fader. Dunno what I was thinking. Told you I've been lost lately.
 
OK gentlemen, I conducted a test to see if I could figure all this out. To start with, Crossstudio is correct, the Aux Bus is a tap - the original signal continues to go straight through the track and then meets back up with Aux Bus signal at the Main. This is a problem for what I wanted to do - since if I lower the Bus Return, it will only reduce the volume on the Bus, while the original signal going through the Track remains unaffected. The problem with this is it will change the effects ratio - i.e., the effects volume (from the Bus) gets lower in proportion to the un-effected signal.

Here's the test I did.
1. Set up a project with just a single track. The track is routed to Virtual Main A.
2. Set up an Aux Bus routed to Virtual Main B. By looking at the playback meters on the two Virtual Mains I could visually see when a signal was coming through the track (Main A) and when it was coming through the Bus (Main B).
3. When I routed the Track to the Bus pre-fader, the signal came out both Mains. Moving the Track fader only affected the Track Signal - it had no effect on the Bus (Duh!)
4. If I routed the Bus post fader, I still got two signals (one track and one bus), and the Track fader controlled volume on both signals (again, duh!).
5. So the solution?? If I set up the Bus pre-fader, I can turn down the Track fader to infinity, and 100% of the signal will come through the Bus. Which is what I want. The problem with this becomes the ability to control the volume ratios among all Tracks routed to the Bus. I had been previously been using the Track Faders to do this, but if I drop them all down to infinity, obviously they can't serve this purpose. However, I imagine I can then use the Track sends for this purpose. By using different settings on each of the Track Sends, I can get a balance among the tracks using the track sends, and use the Bus Return to control the overall volume of the blended Tracks - without affecting the amount of effects heard.

I think I'm getting it. (Although I have had this thought before and was wrong.)

BTW, the analogy to an analog mixer is a little weak. First of all, as mentioned earlier, an analog mixer will generally have a fader on the Bus, and no such thing exists in CW/Sonar. Secondly, there are usually Track assign buttons on an analog mixer. These allow you to assign a Track to the Mains, or to a Bus. When you assign a Track to a Bus in Sonar, it is also still assigned to the Mains - which is part of what was confusing me.
 
I,m glad you started this thread dachay2tnr, because like you I have simply lucked out in my use of the Aux buss in the past.

but if I may, I would like to offer the way I use it, and maybe a solution for what you stated you wanted to do from the start.

I would first take that 3 part harmony and group them together as one..and treat it as one instrument..because once you have established the balance between them there should be no need to change that.....also maybe consider creating a stereo pair..by either singing the parts two or three times and keeping the best two..or cloning the one take and add some delay..enough to get them to separate in the stereo field and not phase..or just simply what will work for your application...and there would also be no need to pan each voice separately because they will separate themselves by virtue of being different voices..as in a chord on a piano or guitar..this is prettty much what is being done in the pro studios..

Now youve got your one track..or two if you go the stereo route..
that you can route to the aux buss..

I setup the aux bus this way..aux send balance..panned center..
the aux send level..fully clockwise..( I want the track aux send level to determine how much signal is going to be fed back to the main buss after Ive set up my aux bus effect) aux return fully clockwise..and the aux return balance..centered ..and my Pre/Post
selector at pre.

Now I guess I need to back up..the main track fader has already been adjusted for a good dry level within the mix..this is my dry level...the signal going through the aux bus is my wet signal..so I am achieving my wet/dry ratio..by the main track fader (dry) and the track aux send level (wet)..most of the time I dont need to crank up the track send much at all..just a touch..especially for reverb on a vocal...

In your case, where you want to lower the backing vocals at a certain point, you can create a volume envelope..and in my case ..you would have to instruct me..on how to do that..because..I have never used envelopes in Cakewalk..I believe I tried it..screwed it up somehow..and never tried again..
have always resorted to using automation..but this is a perfect example of where it would be better..but I will also go on to say that it is probably always the best option..in regards to panning and volume changes..and Im ready to start using it..so I think I will start a thread on how to use envelopes and I hope you will be so kind and instruct me and others who would want to know :)

I dont know if that helped but..thats how Ive done it so far..and i believe between whats already been posted and what is to follow we will ultimately have a better understanding of how it all works!

Dont forget to help me out with the envelopes :)

I also was wondering if maybe you, AlChuck, Tekker, and any of the others would like maybe to sorta create a project utilizing Cakewalk and all the other components, synths internal and external, mixers etc etc..in this forum..You know sorta how to do it from start to finish..I think this would benefit us all in some way or another..either in changing some of our dinosaur methods of doing things up to helping with actual arranging of songs..which I know is a stickler for alot of folks.....just a thought
 
what i do for stereo mic'd guitar tracks and multi-part harmony tracks is:

1. group the track volume faders

2. (using a different group) group the track aux send knobs.

3. set all my track fx sends to be post fader

4. set all my aux fx to 100% wet.

using this method, the track volume itself is the dry signal and the signal coming back from the aux bus is the wet signal. then you control the wetness of the signal with the track aux send knob. when the volume faders lower, the fx lowers too so it stays in balance.

if you are using an effect as a track insert, then you want to control the amount of the effect with the dry/wet mix levels in the effect; however, if you are using an effect in the aux bus, then you want to set the effect to 100% wet.
 
BTW, the analogy to an analog mixer is a little weak. First of all, as mentioned earlier, an analog mixer will generally have a fader on the Bus, and no such thing exists in CW/Sonar. Secondly, there are usually Track assign buttons on an analog mixer. These allow you to assign a Track to the Mains, or to a Bus. When you assign a Track to a Bus in Sonar, it is also still assigned to the Mains - which is part of what was confusing me.
Click to expand...
For the more "expensive" consoles (and some cheaper ones too) that is the case, but on my (cheap Behringer mixer :rolleyes: ) it has a right left main bus (no monitor/aux busses) and then it has the channel aux send (which sends the signal directly to the aux output, and there is no "master aux send") and then the master aux return which is a knob that turns, not a fader (just like in CW). So I guess they just modeled their console view after the "cheaper" mixers (why, I don't know :D).

But there comes a part in the song where I need to lower the volume of the three tracks - while still maintaining the balance among the voices and the reverb settings.
Click to expand...
Is that because they get louder in one spot and you want to try to keep the level constant? If that's what your trying to do, you should try adding a volume evelope to each harmony track and just fixing the level with those. That way you don't have to try to fix it with the fader.

-tkr
 
elbenj said:
Dont forget to help me out with the envelopes :)
Click to expand...
Ok :D

In the audio view right click on the track and choose envelopes > volume, this will insert a volume envelope on your track. If you grab the line as it is now you can raise or lower the volume of the entire track's length (unless you've made any cuts in the wave form). To change the volume of certain spots (with out affecting the rest of the track) right click on the envelope and choose add note it will insert a dot in the line which can be pulled and moved around to get the volume to go up or down. Just to save me the time of writting for ever explaining all this, try adding just one note and see what happens to the line when you grab and move it at different spots (for ex. grab the note and move it, then grab the line itself before and after the note and move it, see the difference?). When you want to change the volume of just a small section and you want to lower the whole thing by the same amount through out that section, make sure that you add two notes at the beginning of the section and at the end, (don't forget to add them at the end or you will change the volume all the way to the end of the song) try this out and you'll see the reason why you add "two" notes; (you can just use a scratch track and then delete everything when you're done) add two notes side by side somewhere in the track, then go down a little ways and add to more notes (side by side) then grab the line in the middle of the 4 notes and move it up or down, pretty cool huh? You can change the volume and at the ends you can grab the note that is attached to the line you just moved (the ones with a * in them below) and move it over for a fade-in or fade-out.

(Ignore all the dots inbetween everthing, they're just spaces. When I posted it erased all the spaces and crammed everything together at the left.)

------[] .................................. []---------------------------------
......... \. <-- (fade out) .......... /. <-- (fade in)
........... \ ............................ /
............ [*]------------------[*]

This is what happens if you forget to add those note at the end, (you could also use this as a fade out at the end of a song).

-----[]
...... \
........ \
.......... \
............ []------------------------------------------------------------

Try it with one note in the middle instead of two.

-----[] ........... []----------------------[] ..... []----------------------
........ \ ........ / ............................... \ .... |
.......... \ .... / ................................... \ .. |
............ \. / ....................................... \ .|
............. [] .......................................... []


Start out with these and just experiment, you'll get it. :)

Hope that helps

-tkr


(you can tell I had fun with this one can't you :D)
 
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Another way to do fade outs on Sonar is to move the cursor over the left hand top of a clip, and it will turn into a triangle, then click and hold it, and drag the fade as far as you want. I love that. Quick and easy. DO the same with fadeouts, only drag it left instead of right.
 
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