Let's talk about Roland V-Drums...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Blue Bear Sound
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I've been recording my V-Drums (TD-10 brain) for about 3 years and before that I used an Alesis D4 brain for about 10 years (my room just is not a good room for tracking drums). However, I have been laying tracks as a drummer for more than 25 years.

First I must agree with VOXVENDOR, the TD10 needs a fair amount of tweaking to get the right mix of attack, sustain, tone and all the other variables that make a good drum sound.

Often this does require mixing the attack of one sound with the resonance of another - and unfortunately, that must be the responsiblily of the drummer - not the engineer.

As Blue Bear has indicating the sounds by themselves can fool you into thinking they sound great, but in the mix they don't seem to maintain a personality. Although that can be said for many sounds. I've heard great sounding piano and guitar tracks that didn't sit well in the mix.

I am much more a performer than an engineer but I have laid many drum tracks (both accoustic and electronic) for many engineers. Early on I found many engineers did not like the electronics because the engineer had to sacrifice a large amount of control over the captured signal. I spent alot of time working with engineers to try to help them get a signal they could work with.

It is not that much differnet than guitar or electronic keyboards, the performer has to have an understanding of what sounds work or don't work. Guitarists and keyboard players tend to work years on "thier sounds" but electronic drummers tend to find some preset sounds and often don't seem willing to "tweak them".

I do find that useing all 8 outputs does help me get the most control of the sound at the board, but some studios just don't have 8 channels free to track drums (not to mention another 2 or 3 to track live cymbals).

Speaking of cymbals, I think we all agree there never has been and never will be an acceptable electronic alternative to live cymbals. There is simply too much sustain and way too many variable harmonics happening to capture a sample.

Given an option I try to go with live cymbals and if it is not an option then the cymbals simply have to be kept low enough in the mix so that the weakness of the sound in concealed vs. highlighted.

So, Blue Bear, while I feel your pain I must say that while I still love real drums, at least in my little studio the advantages of tracking E-drums outweighs the limited compromise of sound.
 
I'll be damned, the same problem happens to me. Those V-drums do sort of dissapear. My band used them to make our demo ( http://www.omnisoul.com ) and they can be a bit of a struggle. Right now we are tracking our full album, and although it will be about 90% real drums, we think the fake stuff could add color here and there. I'm seriously considering tracking the midi to Cakewalk and then building my own sample library for playback.
 
this is probably the obvious, and something I am sure you have tried...

but...like many tracks sometimes sound great on their own, it ISN'T uncommon for them to sound dull or lackluster in a mix. ..and I am sure you know that. ...and apparently have a case right now to prove the point.

But...think of the reverse ...of like soloing that ac. gtr that has no low end at all, but cuts thru the mix good....but sounds like crap on its own. Same with vocals sometimes... I think possibly this is the situation that is kinda happening to you. As they sound great in the mix, they are sharing some frequencies that some other instruments probably occupy too..and therefore 'compete' and then 'lose' in this case. Some people find it helpful to tweak stuff, when it is NOT solo'd , etc...but in the frenzy of the mix. Not like I am telling you anything new, but possibly you need to make them sound like 'shit' so they will sound great in the mix!!:rolleyes: ;) .....
 
Yeah - I tried various ways of trashing them up to get them to sit better.... not really working.... even in the mix, the sound is pretty fair, just lacks the dynamic....

I've successfully used V-Drums a number of times in the past, just this one track is a pig!
 
Hey Blue Bear. I was woo'ed by the sound of V-Drums in the shop and bought 'em then got home started tracking and yeah they sound great on their own but once I start trying to mix them I have a hell of a time! So I can empathize somewhat. I mean there's no money on the line in my case so I can't totally empathize but it sure is disillusioning. So......I always capture the midi while I'm playing and then start swapping and combining sounds until I find something that fits.

Do you have the midi track? You might want to cut bait on the TD-X sounds and find a soundfont or lm4 set that works better.

I will say the one patch on the V-Kit that surprised me was the brush kit. You can check it out on chrisharris' recent tune 'Old Yeller':

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1698&alid=-1
 
Yes... I agree -- taking a midi "DI" of the drums is a good idea when tracking electrics..... allows for flexibility later....

I will do this on the next project I end up using V-Drums for some reasons..........

But you can bet I'll try to convince the band into using live drums first!!! ;)
 
Several comments. First, I agree with others who use real cymbals with the V-Drums. Its a big improvement in itself. Second, I heard (secondhand, of course!) that the V-Drums with the expansion card or whatever it is, are supposed to sound better. Can't verify that. Third, For anybody using MIDI drums, I'd say always print the MIDI info, just so you have the option of triggering other samples. Lately, I've been using the Battery software with their Studio Drums samples and I prefer those sounds over the V-Drums--tons of dynamics. The samples for every drum are like 9 layers deep--very expressive.

Bruce, I realize all this blabber doesn't help you in this case. Its just something to think about for down the road when the next V-Drummer shows up! The ONLY thing I could think of would be to automate the fills to create some fake dynamics--a chore for sure!
 
I don't want to pirate this thread, but someone mentioned tracking *individual* drum parts from the V-Drums. Can this be done? Seems to me that there is just a stereo out connection from the brain which gives you the entire kit. Is there a way to get the individul drum parts - short of recording them one at a time?

I know I can capture the midi and split those out to indivudal tracks, but is there a way to capture the individual pieces in audio?

Thanks in advance.
 
Dachay,

This is just a guess, but it may depend on what model of V-Drum brain box you have...............the one that we had in here had 4 pairs of RCA outs on the back. We used two pairs configured as Kick, Snare and 2 overheads. I presume that if we had had the time it could have been set up to have the 8 individual outputs simulating a fully mic'd up kit.

:cool:
 
Sure there is, on the TD10 anyway. T haven't laid hands on the TD8/TD6, so I'm not positive that you have as many outputs (I think they have only 4). But on the TD10, you have 8 discrete outputs, counting the main stereo pair as 2, the aux stereo pair as 2, and the 4 other loose outputs. In the setup page you can assign individual instruments to individual outputs: I put kick on the main out panned hard right, snare on the main out panned hard left, and so on. Lather, rinse, repeat.

If you have enough channels on your board, this is the *only* way to go. It is certainly quieter than using the internal summing hardware to mix to the main out 2-bus, and I think it sounds better as well: I know my external board does a much better job of summing than whatever hardware they might have in the box. IMNSHO, something in their mixer architecture is not as good as it could be...

The only downside really isn't a downside: the internal effects can only be routed to one output buss. That's fine with me, since I don't use them. Bye-bye.

And Crawdad- the expander is _much_ better as far as cymbal sounds are concerned. There are also a lot of other more usable sounds for just the basic kit. 90% of my patches are now based entirely on the expander sounds. It is absolutely worth considering- hell, I'd even say that it is _necessary_...
 
The other way this is to record the midi info, split it into seperate tracks for each drum/cymbal and play them back and record them one track at a time.
 
dachay2tnr said:
I know I can capture the midi and split those out to indivudal tracks, but is there a way to capture the individual pieces in audio?
Click to expand...
Bdgr - that's what I meant by the above. I know you can do it with midi, but I was unsure about doing it with an audio feed.

Thanks for the feedback guys. The V-Drums are not mine, but a friend's. I'll have to take a closer look next time he brings them over. Not sure which model he has. However, if I can capture the individual drums (or even just the bass and snare) it sure helps me out with mixing/editing. Until now we have just been recording the entire kit on a stereo track. Really a nightmare when you have a great take with a little mistake in it. Or if you want to eq just the snare without eq'ing everything else. :)
 
The TD10 has 8 outs, the TD8 has 4 outs and the TD 6 has 2 outs. Each brain has controls to assign sounds to whatever out you want. If you only have 2 outs you must be dealing with a TD 6 (it is a blue box vs, the grey/silver of the higher lines).
 
Hey Blue Beard,
I've had a serious problem with the cymbal sounds from my modules for years. My final solution was ...real cymbals. I love the sound I get now and I'm never going back.
Something I realized one day, the cymbal sounds are the highest thing on the eq spectrum and the mixes high end is seriously deficient with all that noise shaping and funky sample sound. The mixes I had all had a hashy high end but now it's al sparkley and clear on the high end. It doesn't matter if your DAW has the best specs in the world when your highs are crappy sounds.
Now I find the snare and kicks are alright being in the mix with other sounds, I can work with that. Now the only thing that "pokes out the top" of my mixes are nice real sounds with no noise shaping. Try use a compressor to listen to the cymbals on the Roland module, or just pump the control room vol on the cymbal's decay. I did this and on every module I use I heard a crackley sort of cut out at the end of the sample. That is the real shame about V-drums, use real cymbals and you won't be dissapointed. Plus the tactile control is waaaay smother (muting crashes and dynamic control).
 
Agreed...... but I prefer all live drums anyways!

You mic up a kit properly and the sound is simply amazing! Fake drums can't touch it!!!
 
I reread my post, I wasn't very clear that I was suggesting a combination approach. The sound of the cymbals, as I'm sure the Bear knows, is much easier to deaden with treatment. I record this way in an apartment and have had no complaints...well one.
If the reason for using V-drums is ever a sound leakage issue the cymbals might still be an option.

I've never met a wavetable cymbal I liked. :mad: :p
 
Couple of comments.
First, the hat and cymbal stuff of the rolands are simply not useable, they suck big time.
You can overcome that by........... using real ones ;)

Second. All you have to do is look at the waveforms of the Roland sounds. Take a kick hit for instance - HUGE processed globs.
They are to BIG to poke through in a mix. The more tracks you add, the more they will disappear.

Answer, don't use the Roland sample, look for others. Or, even better if you have to use such a kit, buy a Yamaha instead, at least they have some more useable sounds.

The sad (I mean SAD) thing is that today nobody wants to hear real drum sounds for major lable stuff. Everything is processed, and that's wat they wanna hear.

So,solutions #1, and if you are a recording pro, you better get used to it .......... Always trigger any real kit as well as mic it, and keep the MIDI files so you can always ad / replace sounds.

Other solution if you use Pro Stools, the SoundReplacer plug-in is a must have.

Finally, if ever you arrive at that "ideal" snare, tom, kick, hat sound..... KEEP A SAMPLE! (and, of cause, email it to me):cool:
 
Oh the irony... I am facing the same problem. It's amazing, after tracking i sent the midi data home with the drummer for "tweaking", but they just sound... lifeless, technically perfect, but no ommph. (I agree the cymbals are a nightmare). I usually get 6 tracks out of em to allow eq on the cymbals and toms seperately. I've mixed v-drums before, it really helps to be able to scroll through the sounds to try and find one the 'works' while you mix... I'm sure you know that.
So basically I have no real help to give... I guess I'm just padding my posts. :)

By the way, would it be so hard to put balanced outs on these things! Between V-drums and keyboard players I'm up to seven DI boxes doing live sound, and I really need three more. I love it when the drummer hits some little used sound (like a gong) that mysteriously has it's volume set 3 times as loud as the rest of the kit.

IMHO electronic drums are just as much work as acoustic drums, and usually sound worse.
 
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