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littledog
New member
Richard Monroe said:
Hey, Richie! Is this your subtle way of setting me up for all the blame for whatever goes wrong?
Let's dream up the worst scenario for tracking a band we can think of...
Hey, Richie! Is this your subtle way of setting me up for all the blame for whatever goes wrong?
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littledog
New member
Beezoboy said:
I resemble that remark!
A
Axis
oompa loompa
sonusman said:
3 - Band shows up, drummer has a 12 piece drumkit. It is obvious that the heads have been used for at least a week or two, and there is rust on the hoops of the drums.
4 - Drummer has the toms so low and so close to the snare that you cannot get a top mic in a position to capture a good snare sound. Since he has 4 rack tom's and two kick drums, that snare isn't moving ANYWHERE but where it is.
5 - Drummer has a cymbal over EVERY FREAKIN' tom!!! 3 inches to spare, that is it! Now you cannot get the tom mic in a good position to capture a good sound, and the cymbal bleed is horrible!!! He cannot "play well" if the cymbals are raised. That "flat" mic position on the toms will have to do, even though you cannot get any resonance on the toms now. Also, you cannot possibly supply enough quaity mic pre's for EVERY drum, so you are sharing 3 mics between 6 toms...
haha i know a drummer like that 15 piece kit, 2 snares, 2floor toms, 2 bass drums, 9 rack toms. He also has 31 cymbals and insists on using EACH one in every song so at all times he must keep them around the kit. the top ones he has to stand up to hit, and when he hits them they hit the ceiling.
its VERY pathetic. his idea of a compact kit, is 18 cymbals, 5 toms, 2 snares 2 bass drums
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Well, LD, I do think that the mixing engineer is the single person after the musicians who has the most ultimate power over how a recording sounds. No, you can't make pate de fois gras out of chopped liver. However, it is my belief that good mixing can make mediocre tracks sound good, or excellent tracks sound like shit.
You only need to compare "After Bathing at Baxter's" or "Crown of Creation" to any live Jefferson Airplane performance to see what Al Schmidt did for them. The mixing engineer usually gets no credit for good stuff, and no blame for bad stuff. He's the invisible member of the band. Usually, it's the recording artist who gets the credit or the blame for any given recording, even when Mariah Carey is made to sound like Kermit the Frog.-Richie
You only need to compare "After Bathing at Baxter's" or "Crown of Creation" to any live Jefferson Airplane performance to see what Al Schmidt did for them. The mixing engineer usually gets no credit for good stuff, and no blame for bad stuff. He's the invisible member of the band. Usually, it's the recording artist who gets the credit or the blame for any given recording, even when Mariah Carey is made to sound like Kermit the Frog.-Richie
Even
New member
And to cap it all off, one of the dudes in the band is a member of this BBS and has been reading every word. Up until now was convinced you were the best of pals and was going to name his first kid after you.......
sonusman
Banned
Even said:
heh....that could possibly happen eh?
the thing is, this is a VERY common type of session with metal bands, and I have done MANY just like this. My out is that I could very well be talking about a session I had 4 or 5 years ago.Ed
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Beezoboy
Home Recording Guru
Hey littledog...just kidding about the Mac comment. Well, I mean I don't like Mac, but it is not because I think the sound software or equipment is inferior, because it certainly is NOT.
It is because the comapany never supports older products. I mean it goes all the way up to the new G4's too. One model has a flatscreen monitor that recieves power from the wall. 3 - 6 months later the monitor NOW recieves power from the computer and only has on plug. But here is the kicker. You can BUY an adapter for the NEW monitor for ONLY 100+ dollars so that it too can recieve power from the wall.
That is just the newest encounter I have had with them too. Forgetting the whole OSX delimma and the disk drive thing there is still much more to be pissed about like Nu-bus getting replaced and then never supported. Yosemite? The Cube was the product I liked the most and they killed it. And god help anyone who actually bought that goliath 21 cinema screen that they used to make with the first G4's. And I could go on and on.
Not that PC's are without fault. But at least WinXP can run Win95 apps and you can still find a NEW motherboard with an ISA slot on it for legacy products.
And finally both OSes (OS9 and Win98) were prone to crashes and then fixed and pretty stable now (OSX and WinXP). So for me it is not about the software any more. My dislike comes from the fact that whatever I buy from Apple will most likely be abondaned by the company in 2 years or less and then won't be supported. Unless I buy some cool adapter that costs me lots-o-money.
Beezoboy
It is because the comapany never supports older products. I mean it goes all the way up to the new G4's too. One model has a flatscreen monitor that recieves power from the wall. 3 - 6 months later the monitor NOW recieves power from the computer and only has on plug. But here is the kicker. You can BUY an adapter for the NEW monitor for ONLY 100+ dollars so that it too can recieve power from the wall.
That is just the newest encounter I have had with them too. Forgetting the whole OSX delimma and the disk drive thing there is still much more to be pissed about like Nu-bus getting replaced and then never supported. Yosemite? The Cube was the product I liked the most and they killed it. And god help anyone who actually bought that goliath 21 cinema screen that they used to make with the first G4's. And I could go on and on.
Not that PC's are without fault. But at least WinXP can run Win95 apps and you can still find a NEW motherboard with an ISA slot on it for legacy products.
And finally both OSes (OS9 and Win98) were prone to crashes and then fixed and pretty stable now (OSX and WinXP). So for me it is not about the software any more. My dislike comes from the fact that whatever I buy from Apple will most likely be abondaned by the company in 2 years or less and then won't be supported. Unless I buy some cool adapter that costs me lots-o-money.
Beezoboy
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morte sicura
New member
...
Funny, my mid-90s macs are still holding strong, and I could still purchase a current-generation processor upgrade my 100Mhz 7500 if I choose. Can't say that about the two Windows boxes of the same vintage sitting abandoned on the floor next to it. Sure, it wouldn't be a "new" machine, but who would expect it to be. Technology moves at a quick pace no matter which platform, but I certainly have seen more longevity from my macs. And though each have their drawbacks as companies, I feel much less "abandoned" by Apple than I feel "controlled and squished" by the Microsoft giant.....
I have no problems running mid-90s apps on my new iBook under classic environment. Freehand 5, Photoshop 3 (though I soon acquired a newer version), even a shareware audio app from '94, among many others. And Os X seems pretty darn stable to me, maybe one crash every three months.
Nubus and floppy? What did you expect? Apple has nearly always jumped first into new things. Nubus sucked, but in this case PCI was already a standard, so time to change. The floppy sucks too, but you can pick up a drive if you really need one for really cheap. I know you probably think it should still be standard, but I just don't want that extra weight and space taken up when I can just burn a CD. I'll take a firewire port and a CD-RW over a floppy and Nubus slots any day. Haven't used a floppy since'96.
Sorry, there's always things to complain about (mac web browsing speed, for example) but the things you mention don't really seem like issues to me.
Just my $0.02.
ar
Funny, my mid-90s macs are still holding strong, and I could still purchase a current-generation processor upgrade my 100Mhz 7500 if I choose. Can't say that about the two Windows boxes of the same vintage sitting abandoned on the floor next to it. Sure, it wouldn't be a "new" machine, but who would expect it to be. Technology moves at a quick pace no matter which platform, but I certainly have seen more longevity from my macs. And though each have their drawbacks as companies, I feel much less "abandoned" by Apple than I feel "controlled and squished" by the Microsoft giant.....
I have no problems running mid-90s apps on my new iBook under classic environment. Freehand 5, Photoshop 3 (though I soon acquired a newer version), even a shareware audio app from '94, among many others. And Os X seems pretty darn stable to me, maybe one crash every three months.
Nubus and floppy? What did you expect? Apple has nearly always jumped first into new things. Nubus sucked, but in this case PCI was already a standard, so time to change. The floppy sucks too, but you can pick up a drive if you really need one for really cheap. I know you probably think it should still be standard, but I just don't want that extra weight and space taken up when I can just burn a CD. I'll take a firewire port and a CD-RW over a floppy and Nubus slots any day. Haven't used a floppy since'96.
Sorry, there's always things to complain about (mac web browsing speed, for example) but the things you mention don't really seem like issues to me.
Just my $0.02.
ar
M
morte sicura
New member
on the monitor
If you have the older Apple display and you need to match the connectors, you can spec a different video card when you order the system. Then there's no need for the adapter.
If you have the older Apple display and you need to match the connectors, you can spec a different video card when you order the system. Then there's no need for the adapter.
sonusman
Banned
Would you evil Mac users mind taking your geek talk to another thread? Thanks...
PC vs Mac have NOTHING to do with this thread.
Ed
PC vs Mac have NOTHING to do with this thread.Ed
badgas
New member
At the last minute they cancel.
R
RevF
New member
Most recent...
You guys might remember I was going to record a folk band ? -
a harp, 2 dulcimers, acoustic bass, flute, 2 whistles, 5 vocals and wait for it... 2 pairs of clogs!
Despite 'my' (thanks) advice on overdubbing and stereo mics, they insisted on playing everything live with everything mic'd up... 3 tracks in 6 hours... and a week of evenings of me trying to mix/fix.
Result -
A lot of spill and to my ears a fuzz over each individual track which suggested mains cack? (Poss from Dimmer switches? or their 'mixing boxes'). Grateful for advice on what my have caused this. Bad impedance matching? - Though I did use a Behringer active DI for any non-mics.
Result - no word from them for a month and then as someone has said above - usual story - not happy with the sound - even for demos for pubs...
Not my most successful recording... Live and learn...
New website -
http://www.fruitbatstudios.freeserve.co.uk/index.html
You guys might remember I was going to record a folk band ? -
a harp, 2 dulcimers, acoustic bass, flute, 2 whistles, 5 vocals and wait for it... 2 pairs of clogs!
Despite 'my' (thanks) advice on overdubbing and stereo mics, they insisted on playing everything live with everything mic'd up... 3 tracks in 6 hours... and a week of evenings of me trying to mix/fix.
Result -
A lot of spill and to my ears a fuzz over each individual track which suggested mains cack? (Poss from Dimmer switches? or their 'mixing boxes'). Grateful for advice on what my have caused this. Bad impedance matching? - Though I did use a Behringer active DI for any non-mics.
Result - no word from them for a month and then as someone has said above - usual story - not happy with the sound - even for demos for pubs...
Not my most successful recording... Live and learn...
New website -
http://www.fruitbatstudios.freeserve.co.uk/index.html
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F_cksia
New member
what about the singer of the band i'm recording now.
she sits behind me and looking over my shoulder for hours. then when we'd recorded everything after 3 weeks, I start the mixdown. she sais; oh I can do that for you, go drink a cup of coffee for a minute, i now know how the program works...
I was busy for twenty minutes explaining her that;
-the knowledge of the program you use is 1% of what you need for a good mix.
-her knowledge of the program is less than 1%.
-mixing down stuff you recorded over three weeks is not a job for two minutes, like drinking a cup of coffee.
actually i had to explain her what mixing is, so..
in general i hate it when you've created a great mix, a full sound of everything you worked on till late for free (because the band isn't there and you just like to surprise them with a great version of what they recorded that day), and that the band shows up and either;
-say nothing about it
-praise themselves for the great performance/ adjustment of the amplifiers/ instruments they bought
-praise cubase for being able to do such great stuff.
They just don't have an idea what an time-expensive, precise job it is, quite the same like the first example so.
and I like some credits for the work I've done.
so...
she sits behind me and looking over my shoulder for hours. then when we'd recorded everything after 3 weeks, I start the mixdown. she sais; oh I can do that for you, go drink a cup of coffee for a minute, i now know how the program works...
I was busy for twenty minutes explaining her that;
-the knowledge of the program you use is 1% of what you need for a good mix.
-her knowledge of the program is less than 1%.
-mixing down stuff you recorded over three weeks is not a job for two minutes, like drinking a cup of coffee.
actually i had to explain her what mixing is, so..
in general i hate it when you've created a great mix, a full sound of everything you worked on till late for free (because the band isn't there and you just like to surprise them with a great version of what they recorded that day), and that the band shows up and either;
-say nothing about it
-praise themselves for the great performance/ adjustment of the amplifiers/ instruments they bought
-praise cubase for being able to do such great stuff.
They just don't have an idea what an time-expensive, precise job it is, quite the same like the first example so.
and I like some credits for the work I've done.
so...
Toki987
Rock Steady
I really admire you guys for what you DO have to put up with, and most people never consider that. A lot of clients most likely feel they have bought you just as they have bought time on the clock. You cannot have feelings, intuitive ideas, any input unless its asked for, and if its not what they WANT to hear you should shut up and be the engineer. On the other hand you have those that come in expecting to be in god`s prescence and thinking will be magically transformed into something that sounds worth a damn. If they don`t when you get through, its mostly the engineers fault, or the equipment.
I was fortunate to have looked thru the glass at some really good engineers at work, I learned to appreciate the amount of stress that they have to work under. But they are not silk purse makers, they are packagers. So if you give them shit, all they can do is pack shit in a pretty package.
One of the most seamless sessions I was ever fortunate enough to witness was the interaction between Kansas and the engineers when the vocals for "two for the show" was done where I hung out as a picker. It went almost like a well rehearsed ballet..
I was fortunate to have looked thru the glass at some really good engineers at work, I learned to appreciate the amount of stress that they have to work under. But they are not silk purse makers, they are packagers. So if you give them shit, all they can do is pack shit in a pretty package.
One of the most seamless sessions I was ever fortunate enough to witness was the interaction between Kansas and the engineers when the vocals for "two for the show" was done where I hung out as a picker. It went almost like a well rehearsed ballet..
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F_cksia
New member
Than this;Toki987 said:
same band, was away for a while, I made some subtile extra tracks like some soft strings, piano tones et all, because it sounded so 'small'.
they came back and almost lynched me.
'this is from a keyboard, it are not real strings or a real piano" (notice here I've got the Roland RD500; GREAT sounds).
I told them to listen to it at home and think about it.
After 2 weeks they begged me to keep it in.
It's just because I had the idea and not them, they don't care about the final product but just about their ago sometimes.
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maskedman72
Member
true fact:
i tracked a band that had such a huge kit the drummer had a huge dewalt power screw gun to assemble his rack.
drum set up time(just to get all the toms and cymbals in a position where he could play em) 2 hours.
he was the worst drummer on earth with no meter and after the session the band sued the studio on the tv show "power of attorney" on the basis that the reels were ruind cause they were tails in. they lost the case.
i tracked a band that had such a huge kit the drummer had a huge dewalt power screw gun to assemble his rack.
drum set up time(just to get all the toms and cymbals in a position where he could play em) 2 hours.
he was the worst drummer on earth with no meter and after the session the band sued the studio on the tv show "power of attorney" on the basis that the reels were ruind cause they were tails in. they lost the case.
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F_cksia
New member
most bad drummers hide behind a huge set.
except for Portnoy and Bozzio, of course..
except for Portnoy and Bozzio, of course..
sonusman
Banned
Well, it dawned on the singer today that the very first song he tracked (which was the VERY FIRST studio recording he has ever done) that was "sounds great!" at the time, is maybe not quite what he wanted to do...........
Something about "the performance wasn't my best" or something....
f*cking DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The drummer warned me when he came in for the second full day of drum editing. We talked about the implications on the "budget", and I tried to explain that at this point, we would be opening up a BIG barrel of monkeys if we tried to just retrack "certain parts" of that vocal track. I explained that since we had no time to document where he was in the room, the distance to the mic, the preamps settings, etc....and the fact that his voice would more than likely sound different on a different day (his voice sound different from take to take for pity's sake!!!). So I said that a whole retake would be required for "sonic reasons". I then explained that in the (okay, I didn't say quite like this...) unlikely event that he actually sounds "better", he will start wanting to redo OTHER vocal tracks. Since he sings his loud crap with very little control of his voice, he wouldn't last long again, and it would possibly take two different days to record vocals.
So, tomorrow morning, we retrack at least one vocal part. I am not holding my breath that it will ONLY be one part. I suspect, with good reason (mainly every OTHER member in the band not liking what he has recorded so far) that we will be retracking ALL the vocals again.....
I attempted to apply AutoTune the other day to this vocal part he wants to redo. I have never seen AutoTune act the way it did on his voice! Some of his notes were so bad that autotune would just "crackle" while trying to track it. Me and the studio owner discussed this, and could only come to the conclusion that it only did it on notes where the singer just went balls to the walls in volume, and that he was producing dual or tri tones in his voice, and that autotune just couldn't really latch on to the proper pitch. I tried forcing JUST the note to correct and still the crackle. So, I was largely unable to at least get the pitch somewhere in ball park on about 50% of his vocals.... This is hard on my poor ears as I am very sensitive to intonation problems.
Drum editing entailed using Drumagog on both kick drums and the snare, then going back and fixing timing problems on the double kick drum work! Yikes!!! This is sloooooooooooooooooow tedious work. His left foot was usually pushing the tempo EVERY time he did double kick stuff. If it was consistently early every time, I could have shifted the whole track, but alas! it was not to be!!!! At most, I could move maybe four notes at a time. In some of these songs, that entailed about 150 "moves" just on the second kick drum.....
Crazy project here. This band is throwing a lot of money right now at this "demo" to send to "labels" and "radio stations" to get "signed" and frankly, even with all the "fix it" crap I am doing, it still isn't very major league sounding. It is not really my place to tell them that. They are convinced STILL that a "label" is going to be very interested in this product. But slowly, they are starting to see that maybe they weren't very "tight" coming into the studio. It was JUST today that the drummer started hearing how off his double kick work was! I heard it WHILE he was doing it!!!! Oh well......
It sort of sucks having to view this as a "money gig". I like to feel good about the work I do on a project. There just doesn't seem to be that much here to work with. Sonically, aside from the fact that the drums have to be manipulated to hell, and the problems that arise from that, the project is sounding very good. The songwriting isn't really all that bad for the genre (well, the green vocalist isn't much of a lyric writer...he likes to rhyme a lot, and tends to follow the guitars melody.... ). The execution though is just not very good. The guitar player has been the only person in this band that has laid anything down that is worth listening too. He is in fact pretty good, in spite of the fact that he can't hear a good tone on his instrument if it slapped him in the ass.
Probably more to come on this. The vocalist keeps talking about how his vocals don't have "the effects" on them yet. I suspect he thinks that a bunch of delay, chorus, and reverb are going to make him sound "big time". We shall see! LOL
Ed
Something about "the performance wasn't my best" or something....f*cking DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The drummer warned me when he came in for the second full day of drum editing. We talked about the implications on the "budget", and I tried to explain that at this point, we would be opening up a BIG barrel of monkeys if we tried to just retrack "certain parts" of that vocal track. I explained that since we had no time to document where he was in the room, the distance to the mic, the preamps settings, etc....and the fact that his voice would more than likely sound different on a different day (his voice sound different from take to take for pity's sake!!!). So I said that a whole retake would be required for "sonic reasons". I then explained that in the (okay, I didn't say quite like this...
) unlikely event that he actually sounds "better", he will start wanting to redo OTHER vocal tracks. Since he sings his loud crap with very little control of his voice, he wouldn't last long again, and it would possibly take two different days to record vocals.So, tomorrow morning, we retrack at least one vocal part. I am not holding my breath that it will ONLY be one part. I suspect, with good reason (mainly every OTHER member in the band not liking what he has recorded so far) that we will be retracking ALL the vocals again.....
I attempted to apply AutoTune the other day to this vocal part he wants to redo. I have never seen AutoTune act the way it did on his voice! Some of his notes were so bad that autotune would just "crackle" while trying to track it. Me and the studio owner discussed this, and could only come to the conclusion that it only did it on notes where the singer just went balls to the walls in volume, and that he was producing dual or tri tones in his voice, and that autotune just couldn't really latch on to the proper pitch. I tried forcing JUST the note to correct and still the crackle. So, I was largely unable to at least get the pitch somewhere in ball park on about 50% of his vocals....
This is hard on my poor ears as I am very sensitive to intonation problems.Drum editing entailed using Drumagog on both kick drums and the snare, then going back and fixing timing problems on the double kick drum work! Yikes!!! This is sloooooooooooooooooow tedious work. His left foot was usually pushing the tempo EVERY time he did double kick stuff. If it was consistently early every time, I could have shifted the whole track, but alas! it was not to be!!!! At most, I could move maybe four notes at a time. In some of these songs, that entailed about 150 "moves" just on the second kick drum.....
Crazy project here. This band is throwing a lot of money right now at this "demo" to send to "labels" and "radio stations" to get "signed" and frankly, even with all the "fix it" crap I am doing, it still isn't very major league sounding. It is not really my place to tell them that. They are convinced STILL that a "label" is going to be very interested in this product. But slowly, they are starting to see that maybe they weren't very "tight" coming into the studio. It was JUST today that the drummer started hearing how off his double kick work was! I heard it WHILE he was doing it!!!! Oh well......
It sort of sucks having to view this as a "money gig". I like to feel good about the work I do on a project. There just doesn't seem to be that much here to work with. Sonically, aside from the fact that the drums have to be manipulated to hell, and the problems that arise from that, the project is sounding very good. The songwriting isn't really all that bad for the genre (well, the green vocalist isn't much of a lyric writer...he likes to rhyme a lot, and tends to follow the guitars melody....
). The execution though is just not very good. The guitar player has been the only person in this band that has laid anything down that is worth listening too. He is in fact pretty good, in spite of the fact that he can't hear a good tone on his instrument if it slapped him in the ass.Probably more to come on this. The vocalist keeps talking about how his vocals don't have "the effects" on them yet. I suspect he thinks that a bunch of delay, chorus, and reverb are going to make him sound "big time". We shall see! LOL
Ed
V
vicevursa
New member
Wow! I remember my first time in a studio... What a mess! We recorded 4 songs. I let my dad hear the tape. He made one comment, He wanted to know why we couldn't keep using the 4-track in garage because we weren't that good anyway. (I don't think he was trying to be discouraging, he just happened to know what he was talking about at the time... ) We, however, insisted that the 4-track and the garage were making us sound bad and in the studio we could prove to the world just why we were the best band in the land! I think we actually believed that. (We obviously didn't know anything) At least until we heard our final product. I remember once seeing the engineer gritting his teeth while our drummer made wild thrashing movements with sticks in his hands in an attempt to keep time. (I guess at the time I thought the engineer had indigestion...) Who knows! The engineer did a good job with what we threw at him... But we were really unprepared as a band to record the project. We all knew that the guitar was hardly ever in tune, it was only in tune when either I or the bassist tuned it. As a keyboardist I was still trying to master hexadecimal for my Ensoniq Mirage - while in the studio... And we had a singer who couldn't sing... For whatever reason we had the attitude of a band that has already been signed to a major label. We thought we were IT! Sonically, the tape was good, but as a band, we sucked! Needless to say the music never hit daylight. It was a learning experience and our band broke up due to some well-meaning comments from the engineer and my dear old dad. (I was actually glad!) Now, I'm embarrassed about how we acted in the studio. I don't think I ever thought about it back then, but, in retrospect, the band was probably like many of these bands you guys are talking about. What a child I was! 
You engineers are true saints with the amount of patience you must exert on a daily basis...
Thanks,
Vice
) We, however, insisted that the 4-track and the garage were making us sound bad and in the studio we could prove to the world just why we were the best band in the land! I think we actually believed that. (We obviously didn't know anything) At least until we heard our final product. I remember once seeing the engineer gritting his teeth while our drummer made wild thrashing movements with sticks in his hands in an attempt to keep time. (I guess at the time I thought the engineer had indigestion...) Who knows! The engineer did a good job with what we threw at him... But we were really unprepared as a band to record the project. We all knew that the guitar was hardly ever in tune, it was only in tune when either I or the bassist tuned it. As a keyboardist I was still trying to master hexadecimal for my Ensoniq Mirage - while in the studio... And we had a singer who couldn't sing... For whatever reason we had the attitude of a band that has already been signed to a major label. We thought we were IT! Sonically, the tape was good, but as a band, we sucked! Needless to say the music never hit daylight. It was a learning experience and our band broke up due to some well-meaning comments from the engineer and my dear old dad. (I was actually glad!) Now, I'm embarrassed about how we acted in the studio. I don't think I ever thought about it back then, but, in retrospect, the band was probably like many of these bands you guys are talking about. What a child I was! You engineers are true saints with the amount of patience you must exert on a daily basis... Thanks,
Vice
A
Almiro
New member
I am not an engineer but I've been in studios quite a bit as composer and musician. I remember one time I was in the studion where a hip hop group was recording a track. At some point the producer of the track started to beat up the engineer because the latter had refused to increase the bass on the bass drum...that must be the worst session memory for him.