Learn Me Sumpin About Pickups, Please!

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soundchaser59

Reluctant Commander
I have played electric guitar for 35 years, but to this day I know next to nothing about pickups. Oh, I understand the basic electronic principle behind coils and magnetism and how they work. But I know nothing about which pickups to use for what kind of tone.

For years I played stock, off the wall guitars thru so-so solid state amps and never gave it a second thought. But a couple three years ago I finally reverted back to the All-Tube side of The Force. One night while playing my beautifully setup MIA Strat standing in front of the TV, I realized how tired I was of having to tolerate that loud and annoying 60hz hum/buzz in my guitar when I switch to certain positions on 5-position selector switch.

So I was thrilled a week later when I got my guitar back from the local retailer with Fender Hot Noiseless Pickups on it. No more hum. That was about a year ago.

Now I have been trying to "find my tone" and I realize that the one ingredient I have not messed with in the whole recipe is the pickups. I have been thru a couple dozen amps, a few dozen speakers, and a basket full of pedals, with some success. I am closer than ever now with the gear I have to getting the tone I want, but there is still something in the sound I dont really care for. And I am finally wondering if that last "make a difference" ingredient might be those Hot pickups.

I constantly have my tone knobs turned down to 2 on both the guitar and the amp just to tame the highs and to stop that eardrum piercing sizzle. I frequently have a high freq response in my tone that I would describe as simply too much, too hot, too bright, too brash, too edgy, tooooo darn HOT. I have lowered the pickups quite a bit with only small improvements in this biting response. I'm tired of not being able to have a full range of movement on my tone controls for fear of getting ice picks in my ears!

The tone I'm after I would describe as Lee Ritenour meets Jeff Beck. Or put a different way, take Stevie Ray Vaughns licks but play them on Lee Ritenours rig. Not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea. Some of the smoother Steely Dan solos come to mind, on their later albums, like the solo in FM. I'm after smoother, phatter, warmer, darker sound that can still punch and rock and grind but without that old fashioned single coil scream and piercing high sizzle.

So the questions become these: Will different pickups make that much difference? Am I correct in thinking that it's the "Hot" in these pickups that is causing the too bright too edgy tone I get when I crank my tone knobs up? How can I get the smoother phatter warmer darker tone and still be "noiseless"?? Since I cant very well run "a few dozen" pickups thru my ringer, I need to narrow down the options before I buy. So which ones are going to get me closest to the sound I describe? Can I get there or really close to there without breaking the bank on a bunch of custom forged hand wound Dilithium Crystal pickups from the planet Romulus?? And can I do it with the Strat I already have?

I know my amp and my frets, but I know next to nothing about pickups. Any tips/links/recommends?

Thanks in advance!
 
One thing you can do that isn't expensive is to check your pots in the guitar. If they switched them to 500k pots with the "hot" p-ups you had installed, you can put the 250k pots back in and that will take the edge off the signal a little. This is a trick that Tele players use a lot. Hotter p-ups , but with lower resistance pots. It will cut the gain a little too but most players prefer the "softer " tone. Pots are cheap and if you are handy with a soldering iron , you can do this yourself.
 
goldtopchas said:
One thing you can do that isn't expensive is to check your pots in the guitar. If they switched them to 500k pots with the "hot" p-ups you had installed, you can put the 250k pots back in and that will take the edge off the signal a little. This is a trick that Tele players use a lot. Hotter p-ups , but with lower resistance pots. It will cut the gain a little too but most players prefer the "softer " tone. Pots are cheap and if you are handy with a soldering iron , you can do this yourself.
Click to expand...

You're helping two at once here! I've got the same issue with some hot, overwound pups I dropped in my strat. I'd forgotten about the pots--but I did put 500's in there when I replaced everything. So I'll give it a shot too. Thanks for the tip!
 
goldtopchas said:
One thing you can do that isn't expensive is to check your pots in the guitar. If they switched them to 500k pots with the "hot" p-ups you had installed, you can put the 250k pots back in and that will take the edge off the signal a little. This is a trick that Tele players use a lot. Hotter p-ups , but with lower resistance pots. It will cut the gain a little too but most players prefer the "softer " tone. Pots are cheap and if you are handy with a soldering iron , you can do this yourself.
Click to expand...

The Hot Noiseless Pickups did include new pots. I wondered about that, but didn't have a clue how much difference it would make. I am good with the soldering iron, so I will at least look in there and see what's what. Thanks!
 
No problem, Hope it helps. 500k pots are pretty much standard with humbuckers or hot single coils. If you switch to HB's or hot singles without them you don't get the full advantage of the high output and freq. response.
 
goldtopchas said:
No problem, Hope it helps. 500k pots are pretty much standard with humbuckers or hot single coils. If you switch to HB's or hot singles without them you don't get the full advantage of the high output and freq. response.
Click to expand...

Sorry for hijacking, Soundchaser, but it sounds like we have some of the same issues, so hopefully this'll help you too.

So goldtopchas, you seem to know a bit about this stuff--the new single coils I dropped in my Strat were much hotter than the stock pups--which would explain why 500K pots were included by default.

You're saying 250K pots will negate some of the "hot" in the "hotter output" though right? And if I understand correctly, different caps for the tone pots only make a difference when the tone control is actually engaged--in other words when the tone's all the way open, the cap doesn't make a difference.

The only other thing I can think of is this: Does the standard V-T-T strat control configuration create a different sound than V-T. Do the two tone controls combine to do any thing to the overall tone that only one wouldn't. I never liked one volume, but two tones, so my 2nd tone is a dummy pot, and the middle control is a master tone.

Sorry for rambling. I think I'm talking myself in getting used to the brightness and dialing my sound in my amp a bit differently.
 
If you have a ceramic cap in your circuit you may want to change to a poly or oil/paper one while you're in there. The ceramic ones can be harsh sounding. Playing with the value of caps is a really cheap experiment that can make a big difference.

Try a variety of picks. especially try ones with rounded tips. Taming the attack on a bright guitar can be very helpful. A huge part of tone is in the fingers.

Remove all of the effects and get down to just the guitar and amp. Play with the controls until you arrive at the best clean tone you can find with your rig. Take some time playing with that sound so you can really hear it and fine tune it. Make sure to use all the pickup settings you're likely to need for your playing style. Now start building your tone one step at a time. Keeping those settings, dial in distortion to suit your taste. Add any effects you prefer one at a time. If you add more than one pedal make sure to try each possible sequence. Spend some time playing with each step of this process before you move forward. Once you have done this, you are getting the best tone your existing rig can provide. Now you can decide if your pickups are your problem. It may be that even though you have a very good rig it may not be the right rig.

I don't have much experience with Strat pickups so I can't advise you with spacifics
 
Milnoque said:
If you have a ceramic cap in your circuit you may want to change to a poly or oil/paper one while you're in there. The ceramic ones can be harsh sounding. Playing with the value of caps is a really cheap experiment that can make a big difference.

Try a variety of picks. especially try ones with rounded tips. Taming the attack on a bright guitar can be very helpful. A huge part of tone is in the fingers.

Remove all of the effects and get down to just the guitar and amp. Play with the controls until you arrive at the best clean tone you can find with your rig. Take some time playing with that sound so you can really hear it and fine tune it. Make sure to use all the pickup settings you're likely to need for your playing style. Now start building your tone one step at a time. Keeping those settings, dial in distortion to suit your taste. Add any effects you prefer one at a time. If you add more than one pedal make sure to try each possible sequence. Spend some time playing with each step of this process before you move forward. Once you have done this, you are getting the best tone your existing rig can provide. Now you can decide if your pickups are your problem. It may be that even though you have a very good rig it may not be the right rig.

I don't have much experience with Strat pickups so I can't advise you with spacifics
Click to expand...


Thanks for the tips--I appreciate you "going back to basics" as you can't know my experience level. My pick choice is fairly settled--quite thick and with a rounded tip; I've used 2mm jazz style pick for years now. And the tone that I'm judging is guitar straight to amp. Your advice is correct--that's gotta be the starting point for tone.

I think a lot of it is in my ears: it sounds harsh by comparison, but really may be quite good--just not what I'm used to. I've got an old "one trick pony" tube amp in the shop. I probably need to wait and see how it sounds through that amp as well.

Thanks for the input!
 
I love those little "One Trick Pony" amps. Almost every one of them has a song to sing.

If your first stage preamp tube is a 12AX7 like many of them you can substitute a 12AT7 or 12AU7 in its place and warm up the output. It's something to ask your amp guy while it's in the shop. On most amps you can make the substitution plug and play style. Along the same lines, not all 6V6s or (insert tube type here) sound alike. To try those you will likely need to rebias.
 
One thing I've noticed is that Strats really are finicky about what amp their plugged into. When I'm not using my usual equiptment, It's always easier for me to get a good tone, be it clean or dirty , with a humbucker. Strats just have a tendency to be "peaky" in the high-mid / treble range. That's just what they do best. .......But plug them into a warm enough sounding amp and that's when they really shine. If you use vintage gear, a good amp tech can easliy tweak a few caps, resistors, and tubes to help you get where you want to be (tonewise).
Here are a few things I've used in the past to help "smooth "things out.
As someone mentioned earlier, The first preamp tube is critical to your tone. Try a few different brands and types. 5751's are nice. I ve' used a clean boost a lot for my overdrive settings. Such as...set the amp for just a little break up and hit it with a little clean boost for more break up. You can dial out some of the highs on units that have a tone control. (clean- meaning gain down and level up).
Use a diffuser on your cab. Stevie Ray, like many others just used some duct tape on the inside of the grille to tame the spikey highs coming off the very center of the speaker. About a 4-5" patch will work. A graphic eq at the end of your signal chain with a slight downward slope can be useful too.
 
WhiteStrat said:
Sorry for hijacking, Soundchaser, but it sounds like we have some of the same issues, so hopefully this'll help you too.

So goldtopchas, you seem to know a bit about this stuff--the new single coils I dropped in my Strat were much hotter than the stock pups--which would explain why 500K pots were included by default.

You're saying 250K pots will negate some of the "hot" in the "hotter output" though right? And if I understand correctly, different caps for the tone pots only make a difference when the tone control is actually engaged--in other words when the tone's all the way open, the cap doesn't make a difference.

The only other thing I can think of is this: Does the standard V-T-T strat control configuration create a different sound than V-T. Do the two tone controls combine to do any thing to the overall tone that only one wouldn't. I never liked one volume, but two tones, so my 2nd tone is a dummy pot, and the middle control is a master tone.

Sorry for rambling. I think I'm talking myself in getting used to the brightness and dialing my sound in my amp a bit differently.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you will lose a little gain with the 250k pots. probably still hotter than your stock p-ups though. No, the v,t,t set up doesn't do anything diff. for tone ( except a very slight drop in gain ,from the extra pot being used.) It just gives more variety when it comes to settings. The tone cap only affects the signal when it is turned down (shunting the freq.to ground.) Fender amp bright switches work the same way. When the amp vol. is on "10" the bright switch can have no effect. On 2 or 3 the bright sw. is more prevalent.
 
This is just waaaayy too cool!

I call the phone number on the web page - on a Saturday afternoon - and the guy who holds the patents answers the phone!

Mr. Bill Lawrence himself!

Awesome! 8) Absolutely amazing the technical specs that guy can rattle off the top of his head! WOW!
 
I thought the original post was a very curious one, so I registered just to reply. =]

With due respect, I think the first thing you should do is slow down and start listening to yourself more as you play. Playing the guitar is a wonderfully tactile experience, but the part we share is the part I think you're neglecting. I recognized this as soon as I saw it because I was/am the same way. If you listen more, your playing will bring more enjoyment all around.

As to the question of pickups and hum, get yourself some Kinmans if you're working with a Fender. I literally have only heard good things about them, and when I started using them, I saw why. Google for reviews, etc.

PS, as Chris Kinman says on his website, the screwdriver adjustment of pickup height is the best "tone knob" adjustment on the guitar:
dubya dubya dubya dot kinman.com/html/toneWorkshop/tone.htm
 
Ya know, the more I work with this rig, the more I realize the bridge pickup is the one I most dislike. Do you think I should just start by replacing that one pickup? AND experiment with different cap values? Does each tone pot have its own capacitor?

I really like the sound I get with the neck pickup. The middle switch position I assume is the middle pickup, and it is ok, useable for rhythms, but I find myself always switching back to the neck pickup for leads. It's almost as if I wish the bridge pickup would give me the sound that I get from the middle pickup. The 2nd and 4th positions I have never really liked, they have that "something is slightly out of phase" sound, not real obvious, but enough to really cut the output level and make the sound ever so slightly squeezed or attenuated somehow. It just sounds thin and feels less responsive with the switch in those positions.

If I go from a .022 cap to a .047 cap, does that give me brighter sound, or not so bright?
 
SC,
I wondering if the exploration for "the" tone you are searching for is as much an attack problem as a technological one. Do you use a pick or yer fungers? Smoothness and warmth in tone is much more "manipuable" with the digits - easily worth the amount of tonal colour achievable by twisting the pots on the g. and/or amp. Where on the finger pads you are stroking or plucking the strings, and the strings themselves can/does have an enormous effect on the tone.

I haven't use a pick for many years - even on solos. A pick is good in certain applications for sure (speed, strum, stacato and clarity), but at the expense of that phat warmth I gather you are searching for.

Take a stroll with ye old Friday night finger down the fret board and listen to your stratobanger scream phat tones of "mercy, mercy, great balls of fire" and give your ears some aural satisfaction.

Of course you may already be doing this... in which case disregard the above and replace those single coils with - humbuckers!

K.
 


Here is a little clip to show the difference in the pickups. Nothing dazzling, just basic tone and sloppy licks. The volume knob is full, but the tone knobs are on 2-3 here. Amp knobs are up about 35% on the high, 50% on the mid, 35% on the low, contour about 50%. I only use the neck, middle, and bridge positions on the switch here, no 2nd or 4th position in this clip. Also a bit of compressor and some clean boost, into the "Burn" channel on the Mesa 5.25 Express.

0 - 0:33 basic sound, this is the pickup I like, the neck pickup.
at 0:33 switch to the middle pickup, works ok for rhythm but seems a bit less body for leads.
at 0:44 switch to the bridge pickup, this is the one I think is too thin and bright.
at 0:57 switch back to the neck pickup.


What would you do if you were unhappy with the sound of the bridge pickup here? If I turn the tone knob up more than 2-3 then the bridge pickup becomes really harsh and too edgy for my taste, and it is so thin sounding that it is virtually useless to me in a band setting.
 
dragonworks said:
don't buy a Ford.
Click to expand...
:eek:Dammit Jerry!! I was all absorbed in this conversation...when I come to your post...I about fell out of my chair with laughter!!:D....Love it when someone breaks into the learning process for a surprize moment of laughter!!!;)


Thanks



Okay...now on with the lessons...
 
I ended up trying a Seymour Duncan Cool Rail bridge pickup and had the luthier (the old one, the family owned shop) install it for me (not the death metal guy at the local profiteering music store who put the Hot Noiseless in my Strat).

When I got it back they told me that metal guy had put 1 meg ohm pots in it, all with .022 caps. If I understand the theory correctly, this would explain a lot of why my Strat was too hot and too edgy and too bright for my taste.

The luthier put the Cool Rail in, put 250k ohm pots back in, and larger caps I believe. They were definitely a bit miffed at what the metal guy had done to my Strat. They are very traditional minded folks when it comes to guitar setups!

Now it sounds more like what I remember from when I first bought it, in the days before the Hot Noiseless pickups. They said the Cool Rail is a humbucker, and it seems to sound a bit louder and a bit phatter some how. If I tweak my compressor and my tone knobs a certain way it really gives me a nice sound. And I still have my beloved neck pickup. Now I can turn the amp up a bit louder and get richer sounds from this guitar. This is definitely a nice improvement!!
 
1 meg???? argh!!! No wonder it sounded the way it did. Glad to see it all worked out. Good tone is worth the adventure to find it.
 
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