Lead guitar tone

[Anfontan]

Stellar playing Bob, very nice! All I can say is what's been stated, it could be a bit brighter in the high end-but works very well with the track.

Doesn't that guitar just have a single volume knob with no tone? Any capacitor in the circuit at all? Seymour Duncan's Bassline site is excellent for pickup mods-he has an amazing amount of wiring diagrams and it's the first site I got to when I'm rewiring or modding.

And isn't it a great feeling to play and record on a guitar you built? It's a wonderful thing-though for me the modding and experimenting never seems to end!

 

[WhiteStrat]

The rhythm tone sounds sweet man, great job! Definitely has a laid back feel good for the blues/acdc type stuff. Good job on the lead tone, it's warm and clear.

Not saying this is your issue, but generally when people have trouble capturing a rich lead tone it's the micing. People think of lead guitars at the top of the mix and so they assume they should mic directly on axis in front of the speaker cone so they can capture the "brightest" tone. That brightness doesn't come from a ton of Highs, it comes from a nice, warm, clear recording. I find that when micing for lead guitar tones (I record metal mainly), I get the best, richest tones when I mic either on-axis about (assuming a standard 12 inch speaker) at the middle of the paper, or slightly off axis, pointing at the cone but placed closer to the outside of the speaker. Typically, when you mic right in front of the cone you pick up a bunch of useless hi-end fizz and noise, and not much actual body. The body comes from the paper, and it's better to have too little hi-end and adjust with EQ than to have too much and try to boost the low-end with EQ. if your tone is too dark, you can add a slight hi-shelf and still have a somewhat clear low-end. I find that massive EQ layers to fix the bass-mids of a guitar track muddy it up and kill it's clarity.

I agree with your placement thoughts--my starting point is always on axis, middle of the cone. Adjust to taste from there. And yeah, I'd like to get it as close as possible at the mic--rather than too much tweaking in the mix.

^^^^^ A pretty complete analysis ^^^^^

........ even in this mix, for instance, it sounds a bit distant ...... that's probably mainly because the low mids of the lead and rhythm are clashing and the rhythm's winning. So I think it'll need to bite just a little more to cut thru.
Nice playing man and a really nice sound generally speaking.

Thanks Lt. Bob. I'm definitely hearing that problem in the low mids. Part of the problem is that for that test, I didn't really treat the rhythm tracks as their own "object." I dialed in the lead tone I wanted to check out, then just dialed back the gain for the rhythm tracks. Didn't even change guitars. That approach probably helped the two parts sound a little much alike tone-wise.

...sounds light years better than my 5150 into the 412 w Celestion G12m70s (those dogs just won't hunt).
How 'bout we trade and I'll even throw in a feather, so we'll both be tickled!

Oh yeah? What's that feather made out of?

 

[WhiteStrat]

I've not heard you play like that before...I don't think you know just how good a player you are. Every time I hear something by you, I think it's my favorite noodling by Mr. Wanky..now this one is.

That said..I love the tone..ya know, this is just one of many tones you'll be getting a hold of..just enjoy the ride and take it..and/or let it take you...if this is what they call scooped out guitars, then I like em scooped!

Can't wait to hear more from your search for the lost tone...

The fact that even my playing sounded different to you is both a benefit and a problem. It certainly sounds different to me too.

I like that different guitars and amps make me play differently. I'm going for a whole different thing with my tele into a Blues Jr than a screamo guit into the Legacy.

It seems to be a function of gain: with less gain, I play a choppy staccato style that takes me in a different (sometimes cool) direction. I have found that pretty easy to record. The challenge is to get a real high gain saturated sound, that makes me comfortable playing in my more familiar "shred-lite" manner.

I'm happy to have the variations--like you said: enjoy the ride with many tones--but I also need to get my "home base" covered without reverting back to my POD.

More fidgeting to come. I'll get there...

 

[WhiteStrat]

Stellar playing Bob, very nice! All I can say is what's been stated, it could be a bit brighter in the high end-but works very well with the track.

Doesn't that guitar just have a single volume knob with no tone? Any capacitor in the circuit at all? Seymour Duncan's Bassline site is excellent for pickup mods-he has an amazing amount of wiring diagrams and it's the first site I got to when I'm rewiring or modding.

And isn't it a great feeling to play and record on a guitar you built? It's a wonderful thing-though for me the modding and experimenting never seems to end!

Thanks Tony! Yep, just a single pickup and a single volume; no capacitor. That certainly limits it, but I love the sound it's limited to--it's unlike any other guit I've got. If it was my only one, I'd definitely have to expand its palette, but since I've got other sounds covered with other guits, I think I should just plan not to use this for rhythm and lead on the same tune.

And yeah--it's a blast playing something I made. It's less a big ego trip than it is like being a kid who can't believe he's so lucky! That's how I feel that it came out as good as it did. Lucky!

 

[rayc]

Well, I've listened twice and have to say that it needs more.
That's all just more - like play some more please.

I like the tone, I like darkish tones.
I didn't mind the occassional war with the rhythm guitar - I like to hear a lead break its way out of the confines - the old good & evil tussle solo - it's the Robert Johnson lead legacy.

 

[joeym]

Sounds beautiful, Bob, nice and full.
Oh yeah...your playing's amazing as well.

Joey

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Thanks Zero & Greg. Yep, the amp itself tends toward the dark side. And the guitar is very midrangey with a definite "honk" right in the mids to low mids--so I think you're right on target. I'm also using multiple mics--one of em is a ribbon is darker, and I featured it prominently in the mix. I'll try to brighten it up a bit.

Interesting - I was never happy with my lead sound until I grabbed a Nady RSM-4 ribbon for cheap, and then suddenly everything filled out and sounded smoother and sweeter. I've been using that alone as a lead guitar mic these days, but I'm starting to miss a LITTLE bit of high end grit, so I've been meaning to start experimenting with a second SM57 joining it on the cab. Sounds like you're about where I'm looking to end up.

Anyway, I really dig this lead tone (and the playing!). If anything, I'd leave the lead more or less where it is, and instead tweak the rhythm sound a bit. Before I started reading comments here, the first thing that jumped out at me is the low mids were a little murky on the rhythm tracks - I think clearing that up somewhat would also help clear some room for the low mids in the lead tone. It's worth a shot.

*disclaimer - I'm on a pair of Skull Candy earbuds at the office, so this whole analysis could be suspect.

 

[Sonixx]

that's very cool... loved the chewy feel of the lead.

I'd love to Jam over that track, how about posting it up.

 

[WhiteStrat]

that's very cool... loved the chewy feel of the lead.

I'd love to Jam over that track, how about posting it up.

Sure, I'll pull the lead out and repost it. Maybe tonight, definitely by tomorrow.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Interesting - I was never happy with my lead sound until I grabbed a Nady RSM-4 ribbon for cheap, and then suddenly everything filled out and sounded smoother and sweeter. I've been using that alone as a lead guitar mic these days, but I'm starting to miss a LITTLE bit of high end grit, so I've been meaning to start experimenting with a second SM57 joining it on the cab. Sounds like you're about where I'm looking to end up.

Anyway, I really dig this lead tone (and the playing!). If anything, I'd leave the lead more or less where it is, and instead tweak the rhythm sound a bit. Before I started reading comments here, the first thing that jumped out at me is the low mids were a little murky on the rhythm tracks - I think clearing that up somewhat would also help clear some room for the low mids in the lead tone. It's worth a shot.

*disclaimer - I'm on a pair of Skull Candy earbuds at the office, so this whole analysis could be suspect.

Two days later and I just saw this. Thanks Drew. Yeah, if I had to go with one, it'd be a ribbon. You used the same words I would: smooth and sweet. But since I don't have to just use one (and I'm always complicating things) I'm trying two--or more!

My latest experiment had a touch more gain, and a different compliment of mics: a different ribbon mic (I think the first one had some sag--might've been farting on the low end), and a 421 instead of a 57. I'm getting real close. I'll try to get the latest posted.

And I agree with your comments on the rhythm tracks too. When I tried version 2, I went ahead and retracked the rhythm parts a bit brighter--it definitely helped.

 

[fHumble fHingaz]

Nice tone & playing! I only just discoverd ribbon mics myself. I found an inexpensive "Royer 121" lookalike called a Carrilion Axis 70... Sounds great on guitar amps, drum overheads & as drum room mics.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Nice tone & playing! I only just discoverd ribbon mics myself. I found an inexpensive "Royer 121" lookalike called a Carrilion Axis 70... Sounds great on guitar amps, drum overheads & as drum room mics.

Yep, I looked up your mic and mines the same exact thing with a different brand name--wouldn't be surprised if they came out of the same factory. Great little mics!

 

[XLR]

Great playing Strat. Really great. Couldn't care less about the tone, have to admit, though it's good as well. Only the playing. Expressive. More than a touch of pathos in it.

 

[fHumble fHingaz]

Yep, I looked up your mic and mines the same exact thing with a different brand name--wouldn't be surprised if they came out of the same factory. Great little mics!

Yep - I liked 'em so much I bought 3!

 

[WhiteStrat]

Yep - I liked 'em so much I bought 3!

Too funny! I bought 3 as well. I traded one of 'em for some other piece of gear here on the board, but I've still got two. Check this out: I attached them to each other (top to top) rotated from one another at 90 degrees. Depending on how you point it at your source it can a tight X-Y stereo mic, or a mid-side stereo mic. Works really well.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Sounds beautiful, Bob, nice and full.
Oh yeah...your playing's amazing as well.

Joey

You're too kind, oh Maltese One!

 

[fHumble fHingaz]

Check this out: I attached them to each other (top to top) rotated from one another at 90 degrees. Depending on how you point it at your source it can a tight X-Y stereo mic, or a mid-side stereo mic. Works really well.

I'm trying to picture that - you got a photo?

 

[WhiteStrat]

I'm trying to picture that - you got a photo?

Do I have a photo? No. I've got three.

In pic #1, one of the caps is off--they just pop off after you remove the two little screws at the top. You can see where I drilled holes in the caps. That's the nut and bolt I use to hold 'em together. Had to saw the bolt down to just the right size to fit it all together.

 

[WhiteStrat]

In pic #2, you can see how the two caps are screwed together, at a 90 degree angle from one another. You can also see how the bolt doesn't protrude beyond the recess in the cap.

 

[WhiteStrat]

In pic #3, the caps are back on. Yeah, it's long and a bit goofy looking, and it has a mic cable coming out of each end, but it's great for exact placement.

After I thought I'd invented something cool--I looked on the ol' interwebs and found companies selling the exact same thing. They just mounted the guts from one on top of another and had it pre-wired with a "double" XLR cable coming out of one end. Prettier than mine--but mine was cheaper!

Oh--and for the record, I didn't use this rig on the recording. I had taken them apart because I was micing two different amps with 'em. I just put it back together for these pics.