Latency questions

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omtayslick

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Can someone give me a little tutorial on latency, and it's real world ramifications? Zero latency monitoring, etc.? Is this primarily an issue for soft-synths, or for audio also?

I am getting ready to get a new 8 input interface. Probably a Layla 3G. I will be recording audio only, through the Layla pres and a couple of outboard pres, no external mixer for monitoring. Someone mentioned that the Layla does not have zero latency monitoring. How will this affect my recording situation? Should some modifications to my set-up be considered?
 
Hi omtayslick,
There's also an explanation of zero latency that I read for the first time earlier tonight at
http://www.hyperactivemusic.com/MSProFiles/FirepodReview/firepodreview.htm
(just click on the firepod review, which is worth reading in itself, if you can't click on the link above).

This might make you consider the firepod, if you haven't already.

Also, could you say how you arrived at your decision to buy the Layla soundcard? I am in the same position myself and am considering other options (firepod, 1820 M, RME etc.).

Thanks,
GVDV
 
gvdv said:
Also, could you say how you arrived at your decision to buy the Layla soundcard? I am in the same position myself and am considering other options (firepod, 1820 M, RME etc.).

Thanks,
GVDV
Click to expand...

Well, nothing is off the table if a compelling reason comes along to make me consider one of the others. Here is a summary of my conclusions after researching this for a couple of months. (It may turn into a short novel)

I have been happily playing with a 2 input usb device for several years. (Aardvark, very solid compared to most usb audio stuff) But now my recording needs have changed, and I need to record several instruments at once, including drums. Mixing in the computer, no outboard stuff.

I am using an older Dell PIII computer. 996 Mhz, 512 RAM. And I really don't want the expense of replacing this as well unless absolutely nessesary.

These are the things that I have considered:

Delta 1010LT- Obviously a great value, IF the sound is up to par. But the goofy breakout cable would require extra wiring. Wouldn't bother me too much because I would probably do very little re-patching. But doubts about it's sound performance bother me. However, my PIII should run it with no problem.

Delta 1010- More $$. Older converters. (are they still good compared to today's stuff?) PIII would run it well. No preamps- But that is not a deal breaker. Still considering this one because of computer specs.


Firepod- I would have to add a firewire PCI card to my computer. And I am very close to their minimum PC requirements. Not much margin for error. I like the streamlined functionality of the unit. For the way I like to work, this is probably the best choice for that reason. I like things simple and straightforward. But, on the flip side, if I don't like the pres I'm stuck with them.


Edirol stuff- USB on more than 2 channels is scary. As for their firewire stuff-- I'd need a firewire PCI card, and although the Edirol drivers are reputed to be great, not much other info is available about them.

Emu 1820m- Love what I've heard about the sound. But, the reputed driver issues are scary. Also, just reading about the Patchmix software and all the extra software they have crammed into this set-up makes my eyes glaze over. I like stuff simple.

RME- Would love to. It's a budget issue. Trying to stay under $600.


Layla 3G- Reliability and speed of PCI with my PIII. Their system requirements (you gotta really dig for them. They're in the PDF manual on the Echo site) say PIII or better. There are a lot of PIII's out there running at less speed than mine, so sounds like I would be ok.
Except for the high-end Apogee users and so forth, everybody says it sounds great. I would get 2 preamps. I can use them for non-critical duty if I don't like them. I'm not a snob in this area, (I am a DMP3 user) I just question whether I want to be married to 8 Presonus pres, just in case. Also the digital I/O for future expansion is a nice bonus. Attractive price. Found it new for $415.


So here's where I'm at.

RME is out due to budget.

EMU is too daunting a propostion. Although if I went with an EMU card I would probably get the 1212M. Iwould run my DMP3 into the analog ins and get an Octane for 8 more.

Getting a 1010lt, would require a lot of goofy patching, and a couple more preamp channels, and then I'm close to the cost of the 1010.
The 1010 and a couple of preamp channels, and then I'm over the cost of the Layla.

So it looks like the Layla.

I would love additional input about any of this from anyone using any of these devices.

I am not doing work for hire, but I would like reliability, and acceptable sound quality for my band recordings.
 
Hi omtayslick,
Many thanks for the reply - wasn't like a short novel at all; very clear, informative information, it seemed to me.

I looked at the specs. for the Layla 3 G and wondered if you had also considered the two firewire options made by Layla (audiowire 8 and 12). Am I right in assuming that you're more a fan of PCI based recording?

Also, I notice that the Layla 3 G has what is described as "Near zero latency" hardware monitoring, while the Firepod has "zero latency" monitoring. Does this make any difference for you?

All the best,
Geert.
 
omtayslick said:
I am getting ready to get a new 8 input interface. Probably a Layla 3G. I will be recording audio only, through the Layla pres and a couple of outboard pres, no external mixer for monitoring. Someone mentioned that the Layla does not have zero latency monitoring. How will this affect my recording situation? Should some modifications to my set-up be considered?
Click to expand...

I would definitely steer you towards a cheap FireWire card and a FirePod.

IMHO, spending $500 on a PCI interface isn't a very good investment these days. PCI is a deprecated standard; manufacturers are in the process of transitioning away from PCI to PCI-Express (PCIe) which isn't compatible with existing PCI cards.

An 8-channel, $500 interface could easily still be usable 10-15 years from now. I doubt you'll be able to find very many current motherboards with parallel PCI in 10-15 years. ISA took a while to go away because it was in heavy use. PCI is basically a niche architecture---most people have... at most one PCI card in their machines---so it is likely to fade away more quickly.

Of course, the risk of obsolescence exists with any standard, but it's much easier to get adapters for external devices. (I can still use ADB keyboards, parallel printers, SCSI drives, etc. but I can't easily use NuBus cards or ISA cards.)

Just my $0.02.
 
dgatwood said:
...I doubt you'll be able to find very many current motherboards with parallel PCI in 10-15 years. ISA took a while to go away because it was in heavy use. PCI is basically a niche architecture---most people have... at most one PCI card in their machines---so it is likely to fade away more quickly....
Click to expand...

Respectfully, I disagree to a certain extent. PCI is just as ingrained now, as ISA was back in the day. It's not going to be abandoned as quickly as you suggest.

However, as rediculous as it is, technological advances in PCs roll over far quicker than they did when ISA was getting phased out. A machine you bought 2 years ago, which was state of the art, is now several grades below entry level....

This just wasnt the case in the early 90s, when PCI was first introduced. The changes between the first 486 machines and the last 486 machines, if memory serves me correctly, happened over the course of roughly 1-2 years. We're talking a difference of less than 100 mhtz. What's the speed advances in PC computing technology from 1-2 years ago and now? It's gotta be at least 10-15 times that!

For a card arcitecture like PCI to have lasted throughout all of that, is truly amazing....and it really does suggest how much it is ingrained.


In fact, I often question the idea of going to a firewire system on an audio PC. Doesn't firewire offer something like 400 Mps? I think PCI several times that....why squeeze the pipe when you can still use cards that are very fast, very cheap and sound very good?

I dunno...I'm just thinking outloud here...so don't shoot me, dgatwood.

-Frank
 
bitsandvolts said:
Respectfully, I disagree to a certain extent. PCI is just as ingrained now, as ISA was back in the day. It's not going to be abandoned as quickly as you suggest.

However, as rediculous as it is, technological advances in PCs roll over far quicker than they did when ISA was getting phased out. A machine you bought 2 years ago, which was state of the art, is now several grades below entry level....

This just wasnt the case in the early 90s, when PCI was first introduced. The changes between the first 486 machines and the last 486 machines, if memory serves me correctly, happened over the course of roughly 1-2 years. We're talking a difference of less than 100 mhtz. What's the speed advances in PC computing technology from 1-2 years ago and now? It's gotta be at least 10-15 times that!

For a card arcitecture like PCI to have lasted throughout all of that, is truly amazing....and it really does suggest how much it is ingrained.


In fact, I often question the idea of going to a firewire system on an audio PC. Doesn't firewire offer something like 400 Mps? I think PCI several times that....why squeeze the pipe when you can still use cards that are very fast, very cheap and sound very good?

I dunno...I'm just thinking outloud here...so don't shoot me, dgatwood.

-Frank
Click to expand...

Isn't it swings and roundabouts - as they say in the U.K. - when it comes to choosing between PCI and firewire? Aren't there advantages and disadavantages to one or the other? If it was straightforward in terms of choice and results, I would assume there wouldn't be the dilemmas that people face and that are posted daily here.

Am I right?

GVDV
 
bitsandvolts said:
.


In fact, I often question the idea of going to a firewire system on an audio PC. Doesn't firewire offer something like 400 Mps? I think PCI several times that....why squeeze the pipe when you can still use cards that are very fast, very cheap and sound very good?
-Frank
Click to expand...

Actually, this was my thinking as well. Especially on an older machine. With the recent advances in converter technology I am more concerned with the converters becoming obsolete. (Hence my question about whether the Delta 1010 is still a good choice.) Sound is king.

My needs are fairly simple compared to many. And I like simplicity. So, an interface with good converters, that is user friendly, and will do 8 tracks simultaneously with my current system is all that I need. I rarely mix more than 18 tracks, and don't use midi. If it will all play nice together, and sound good, and I have software that will do what I need, then the changes in the computer world become a non-issue. I'll just use my old stuff as a stand alone DAW.
 
gvdv said:
Hi omtayslick,
Many thanks for the reply - wasn't like a short novel at all; very clear, informative information, it seemed to me.

I looked at the specs. for the Layla 3 G and wondered if you had also considered the two firewire options made by Layla (audiowire 8 and 12). Am I right in assuming that you're more a fan of PCI based recording?

Also, I notice that the Layla 3 G has what is described as "Near zero latency" hardware monitoring, while the Firepod has "zero latency" monitoring. Does this make any difference for you?

All the best,
Geert.
Click to expand...

Thanks Geert,

The 3G seems to have the same converters as the 2 firewire offerings. So my reasoning is why put a PCI firewire card in my PC if I don't have to.
Maybe it could be another point at which things could glitch.(?)

As far as "near zero" vs "zero" latency monitoring goes, this is what I had hoped to find out about from my original post. From all my reading so far, it doesn't seem like a big issue.

Thanks to all for the input. Is my reasoning "sound"? (pun intended)
 
Both Zero latency and near 0 or whatever just means that you can monitor the live inputs, you can listen to the inputs via the outputs. thats it. It is probably the last feature you should care about
 
Hardware monitoring is just fine on the 3G....I own one. I think the terms "zero" and "near zero" are equivalent here. I previously owned a Firepod because I thought I might need the portability and the pre's, turned out I really didn't. I opted to purchase a 3G (which perhaps just edges out the Firepod in sound quality) because of my previous experience with Echo Audio (owned a Mia and a Gina 24) which was excellent. I've never had issues with their products, and my 3G is running flawlessly using Sonar 5 with a latency setting of about 2.9 secs while recording using SampleTank for my softsynth. If I start getting too crazy with plugs, I sometime bump up after recording to 5.8 secs latency. This is in the software monitoring mind you. My feeling and experience is that slightly better latencies can be achieved with this on an optimized PC using a PCI interface.

Didn't have any issues with the Firepod either, BUT, I made sure I purchased a TI chipset firewire card (manufacturer was Keyspan) to use it with. While some may see PCI as "obsolete", I'm not really grasping that concept. PCI offers tried and true performance for audio and even though firewire is right up there now, I don't really see that it matters purchasing one or the other. Comes down to features I suppose when we're hanging in the general price range we're all talking about here (except for the RME). I looked into the RME Fireface, but opted for the 3G and spending some cash on other pre's, mics, etc. In that area, I added a couple M-audio Tampa pre's to my arsenal and still use my VTB-1's....high-end pre's are not too far away - maybe this summer.

The pre's (two of them) on the 3G are OK, maybe marginally around the quality of the Firepod's, but I didn't buy one for those. People are buying the Firepod - in general - for the eight pre's. I wasn't ridiculously crazy about them, but they did a pretty darn good job while I tracked my Dad's band.
 
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