Stop and think. Eventually, you'll get it.
KRK studio monitors, read this before buying them.
- Thread starter KingDiamond
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Stop and think. Eventually, you'll get it.
I thought I'd share again the comments I posted from David Josephson just over a year ago on the issue of quality control in mike manufacture. The applicability to other products may be less apt, but I think it's still of interest since so many folks here buy microphones. I asked him about the differences in design and production of his high end mikes compared to the low cost mikes, mostly from China. Life is generally not as simple as a one liner and David gives an interesting and elaborate reply. I find his comments on tolerances, rejection rate and reliability very relevant. The Chinese mike production strategy is what it is and produces what it produces.
Cheers,
Otto
"Otto,
There's obviously only so much time for answering such a question ... but I'll try. I know a bit about Chinese production strategy, having worked in that country about half time for five years in the 1980's (not in audio, but in geophysical and lab instrumentation). I have a lot of respect for their industry and resourcefulness, having seen the results of their pulling themselves out of a Soviet-generated technological dark ages in the 1960's (read up on the history of the famine and the USSR's technical pullout from China during 1959-1961). They kept the brute force engineering they learned from Soviet universities in the 50's which was focused on producing adequate and robust technology cheaply in huge quantity. If you make a thousand toasters, no one minds if 5% of them are faulty when there's an extra 10% included for free with the thousand you made. This is a valid and powerful cost reduction strategy -- but not for us. Today of course Chinese industry is moving beyond that in semiconductors and other major technologies, but studio microphone capsule production is still a small business for everyone. There are something like 20 billion electret condenser microphone capsules made every year -- a few tens of thousands of studio condenser mic capsules are in the noise and the few hundred we make aren't even on the chart. No one discussing these issues has a clue unless they have been through the process themselves, and those who have, typically find no reason to participate in the discussions.
All of the aspects you mention are relevant, and there are many others. A capsule is designed based on the knowledge that certain tolerances can be achieved in production. The first difference is that when you know tolerances are loose, you can't specify dimensions in the design that must be held to close tolerances. Some dimensions in the Series Seven capsule must be held within a ten-thousandth of an inch; if you can only get to a thousandth, you can't make that part, so you're constrained to designs that don't require such tolerances. The capsule in most Chinese big-diaphragm mics is a derivative of the Neumann KK67 capsule, which is an improvement of the Norddeutscher Rundfunks M7 capsule designed by Braunmuehl and Weber in the 1930's. Ones that won't work in a multi-pattern mic because the halves don't match will work OK in cardioid only (as they were originally conceived); one side or the other will work OK. The AKG CK12 capsule of the 1950's was far more demanding in terms of machining precision; even AKG had a hard time getting them right (different examples are all over the map in terms of response, for reasons we understand) and they ultimately decided they were too difficult to make. The guy responsible for that manufacture, as far as I know, was Bernhard Weingartner who left AKG and went on to found Neutrik. That design is the basis of the Series Seven capsule, and we have been producing our version with continual improvement since 1989 ... we have learned a lot. AKG would probably have done the same if they had decided to stick with that design. There are several books of notes on this topic here chronicling successes and failures, true discoveries and barking up wrong trees, which as you can imagine I'm not about to share. The three principals of the company have unique skills in manufacturing, electrical engineering and physical acoustics, and without this combination of skills I don't think we would have been able to get to where we are today -- which is that one of our techs can set out the parts to make 20 capsules and come up in a few weeks with exactly 20 capsules which are all the same (unless we want them to be different, which we sometimes do for our OEM customers). There is no single key to this performance -- it is the sum of a thousand little pieces.
And then there is the issue of reliability. Nearly all of the original large diaphragm capsules that I made in the early 1990's are still in use and performing exactly as they did originally (although it took me much longer to get them there than it does today). There were failures and degradation issues for the first couple years of production but all of those capsules (which reached the market in very early Manley Gold Reference microphones) have been replaced, and those issues are now fixed. Since my last industry work before starting my company was in a military quality control system that I developed and managed, I was preoccupied with this from the beginning. You can look at many of the low cost microphones on the market today and see where economies result in tolerances that degrade with age, and this degradation is seldom good. This is the ultimate limit to the low cost, weed-out-the-duds approach. A capsule that sounds OK today may not tomorrow; there's no way to predict how things will warp and stretch if the materials are not stable. We simply don't have capsule failures in production mics anymore, these are fairly easy to prevent if you know what's going on for any manufacturer that's willing to take the time and expense to engineer the process properly. Even that doesn't prevent big name companies from rushing capsules into production when their long term reliability isn't known -- there has been at least one example of this in recent years where a whole production run had to be recalled.
Feel free to quote and distribute this reply as you like.
Cheers
David Josephson"
Cheers,
Otto
"Otto,
There's obviously only so much time for answering such a question ... but I'll try. I know a bit about Chinese production strategy, having worked in that country about half time for five years in the 1980's (not in audio, but in geophysical and lab instrumentation). I have a lot of respect for their industry and resourcefulness, having seen the results of their pulling themselves out of a Soviet-generated technological dark ages in the 1960's (read up on the history of the famine and the USSR's technical pullout from China during 1959-1961). They kept the brute force engineering they learned from Soviet universities in the 50's which was focused on producing adequate and robust technology cheaply in huge quantity. If you make a thousand toasters, no one minds if 5% of them are faulty when there's an extra 10% included for free with the thousand you made. This is a valid and powerful cost reduction strategy -- but not for us. Today of course Chinese industry is moving beyond that in semiconductors and other major technologies, but studio microphone capsule production is still a small business for everyone. There are something like 20 billion electret condenser microphone capsules made every year -- a few tens of thousands of studio condenser mic capsules are in the noise and the few hundred we make aren't even on the chart. No one discussing these issues has a clue unless they have been through the process themselves, and those who have, typically find no reason to participate in the discussions.
All of the aspects you mention are relevant, and there are many others. A capsule is designed based on the knowledge that certain tolerances can be achieved in production. The first difference is that when you know tolerances are loose, you can't specify dimensions in the design that must be held to close tolerances. Some dimensions in the Series Seven capsule must be held within a ten-thousandth of an inch; if you can only get to a thousandth, you can't make that part, so you're constrained to designs that don't require such tolerances. The capsule in most Chinese big-diaphragm mics is a derivative of the Neumann KK67 capsule, which is an improvement of the Norddeutscher Rundfunks M7 capsule designed by Braunmuehl and Weber in the 1930's. Ones that won't work in a multi-pattern mic because the halves don't match will work OK in cardioid only (as they were originally conceived); one side or the other will work OK. The AKG CK12 capsule of the 1950's was far more demanding in terms of machining precision; even AKG had a hard time getting them right (different examples are all over the map in terms of response, for reasons we understand) and they ultimately decided they were too difficult to make. The guy responsible for that manufacture, as far as I know, was Bernhard Weingartner who left AKG and went on to found Neutrik. That design is the basis of the Series Seven capsule, and we have been producing our version with continual improvement since 1989 ... we have learned a lot. AKG would probably have done the same if they had decided to stick with that design. There are several books of notes on this topic here chronicling successes and failures, true discoveries and barking up wrong trees, which as you can imagine I'm not about to share. The three principals of the company have unique skills in manufacturing, electrical engineering and physical acoustics, and without this combination of skills I don't think we would have been able to get to where we are today -- which is that one of our techs can set out the parts to make 20 capsules and come up in a few weeks with exactly 20 capsules which are all the same (unless we want them to be different, which we sometimes do for our OEM customers). There is no single key to this performance -- it is the sum of a thousand little pieces.
And then there is the issue of reliability. Nearly all of the original large diaphragm capsules that I made in the early 1990's are still in use and performing exactly as they did originally (although it took me much longer to get them there than it does today). There were failures and degradation issues for the first couple years of production but all of those capsules (which reached the market in very early Manley Gold Reference microphones) have been replaced, and those issues are now fixed. Since my last industry work before starting my company was in a military quality control system that I developed and managed, I was preoccupied with this from the beginning. You can look at many of the low cost microphones on the market today and see where economies result in tolerances that degrade with age, and this degradation is seldom good. This is the ultimate limit to the low cost, weed-out-the-duds approach. A capsule that sounds OK today may not tomorrow; there's no way to predict how things will warp and stretch if the materials are not stable. We simply don't have capsule failures in production mics anymore, these are fairly easy to prevent if you know what's going on for any manufacturer that's willing to take the time and expense to engineer the process properly. Even that doesn't prevent big name companies from rushing capsules into production when their long term reliability isn't known -- there has been at least one example of this in recent years where a whole production run had to be recalled.
Feel free to quote and distribute this reply as you like.
Cheers
David Josephson"
Yeah - I'm not bothering to argue about it anymore as well.
I've brought several documents from well known media sources as proof that China has quality control problems - but it is your opinion that they do not. Search this very BBS for "Chinese Crap" and view by post - you'll easily get several hundred posts just from this community...... "Chinese Crap"...... as a key word.
It is my opinion that you know that they DO have quality issues, as it's in the news evryday, but if you want to be a TROLL and argue the reverse for the sake of arguing, your obviously free to do so.
In summary, I say China has quality control issues, and the media here on planet earth also says China has quality control issues, but Billisa does not agree.
I know you've been on this board since 2003 Billisa, it says so on the header of your posts. It also says your rep sucks..... 1200 posts and 1400 rep, and that many years here..... rep can be a joke, but in your case - I have to wonder if you simply just argumentative.
Anyway - Billisia, hope to see you in another thread someday, where we can talk about recording !!
Cheers Brother.
I've brought several documents from well known media sources as proof that China has quality control problems - but it is your opinion that they do not. Search this very BBS for "Chinese Crap" and view by post - you'll easily get several hundred posts just from this community...... "Chinese Crap"...... as a key word.
It is my opinion that you know that they DO have quality issues, as it's in the news evryday, but if you want to be a TROLL and argue the reverse for the sake of arguing, your obviously free to do so.
In summary, I say China has quality control issues, and the media here on planet earth also says China has quality control issues, but Billisa does not agree.
I know you've been on this board since 2003 Billisa, it says so on the header of your posts. It also says your rep sucks..... 1200 posts and 1400 rep, and that many years here..... rep can be a joke, but in your case - I have to wonder if you simply just argumentative.
Anyway - Billisia, hope to see you in another thread someday, where we can talk about recording !!
Cheers Brother.
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Every country makes good and shitty products. Saying "China has QC problems" is just as stupid as saying it doesn't.
What do you think they are going to put in the news? "Today's top story: A shipload of inexpensive, well-made goods arrived from China this morning. Customers very happy. Details at 11."
Of course they are not going to publish a news story everytime a shipment of production goes well, are you kidding me ???? Boingoman - your way smarter than that - wtf ???
They put it in the news when people from Japan almost die to due food poisoning, pets die due to food poisoning, kids toys are not safe, shipments of un-regulated knock off products are confiscated by police - and that stuff is in the news everyday, when it comes to China.
Boingoman - you know very well that they publish news when it's :
A. Bad News and
B. When it's in the interest of public safety.
Yeah. That must be it. Gotta get those rep points up. It really means something.
I've just realized that I've got the inside scoop on this - because my company has ordered and had the following produced and shipped from China..... (custom designs - personalized for our clients)
1. Coffee Mugs (spelling mistakes, peeling logo's, broken cups, handles come off in your hand)
2. Playing Cards (no problems)
3. Bingo Dabbers (completely un-usable - were literraly exploding on old ladies, with ink dripping from the ceiling)
Each time, it was 2 massive skids, many many boxes, hundeds of pieces.
The quality was awful. Alot of it - unusable. (Although - The playing cards we're perfectly fine)
In fact - we will never do it again. We've still got boxes of mugs in a wharehouse, don't know what to do with them.
I'm sitting here thinking "How can you guys not know about their country-wide quality control problem -- does nobody read the news ??? " Many of their companies don't have the same ISO standards.
I know a guy who works in Michigan, on automation. (PLC's.) He went over to install equipment in China - had to turn down the contract, because if he had installed on equipment in the facility they wanted it in - the building would have fallen down. He simply refused the entire job - because they did not have the safety in place - or any quality certifications.
My Grandfather owns a Tool and Die shop. He lost alot of big 3 work to China. Guess what ? The work is coming back, plus, he's getting the repair work, on jobs built in China. They are sending Molds all the way across the globe, to be re-built properly.
I know another guy here in my town, who is a contractor - he's been over there a few times a year for many years -- same story, they don't have quality in place. (I don't remember what his specific scenario was - but he installs rubberized coatings on roofs, and other places ie: Duck ponds in zoo's, etc.) Anyway - he told us it was a health and safety / quality control nightmare. He was last there summer of 2007.
It dawned on me that I've got more information than what I had mentioned before - and you guys don't see the whole picture.
They have major infrastructure issues, health and safety issues, and quality control issues - and if you deny that, your talking out of school.
Anyway - back to KRK's.
1. Coffee Mugs (spelling mistakes, peeling logo's, broken cups, handles come off in your hand)
2. Playing Cards (no problems)
3. Bingo Dabbers (completely un-usable - were literraly exploding on old ladies, with ink dripping from the ceiling)
Each time, it was 2 massive skids, many many boxes, hundeds of pieces.
The quality was awful. Alot of it - unusable. (Although - The playing cards we're perfectly fine)
In fact - we will never do it again. We've still got boxes of mugs in a wharehouse, don't know what to do with them.
I'm sitting here thinking "How can you guys not know about their country-wide quality control problem -- does nobody read the news ??? " Many of their companies don't have the same ISO standards.
I know a guy who works in Michigan, on automation. (PLC's.) He went over to install equipment in China - had to turn down the contract, because if he had installed on equipment in the facility they wanted it in - the building would have fallen down. He simply refused the entire job - because they did not have the safety in place - or any quality certifications.
My Grandfather owns a Tool and Die shop. He lost alot of big 3 work to China. Guess what ? The work is coming back, plus, he's getting the repair work, on jobs built in China. They are sending Molds all the way across the globe, to be re-built properly.
I know another guy here in my town, who is a contractor - he's been over there a few times a year for many years -- same story, they don't have quality in place. (I don't remember what his specific scenario was - but he installs rubberized coatings on roofs, and other places ie: Duck ponds in zoo's, etc.) Anyway - he told us it was a health and safety / quality control nightmare. He was last there summer of 2007.
It dawned on me that I've got more information than what I had mentioned before - and you guys don't see the whole picture.
They have major infrastructure issues, health and safety issues, and quality control issues - and if you deny that, your talking out of school.
Anyway - back to KRK's.
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OK- for pretty much any product, you have three choices- cheap, good, and fast. You can pick any two, the third is eliminated.
As soon as America won't buy cheap bingo dabbers, the problem will be solved.
It's not gonna happen, because Americans will buy anything cheap. And eventually the Chinese will catch on, and like Japan did with electronics and cars, they will be producing cheap, high-quality goods. They already make lots of excellent products that are cheap and well-made. That's what I think about. China's QC problems will disappear at some point. That's what you should really be worried about.
Japan has Quality.
They've been putting Quality first since WW II. (maybe before that, I don't know)
They are goal orientated, hard working, craftsman. That's the basis of the entire Japanese economical miracle.
They even brought over American consultants to make sure everything was quality - because quality always costs less in the long run. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
Japan and China are very different, and not to be confused.
I am not talking out of school on any of this, and you guys havn't provided one shred of evidence to back up any of your opinions. (China makes stuff so it's going to have quaility issues just like everybody who makes stuff.... blah blah blah)
Whatever............. KRK's.
They've been putting Quality first since WW II. (maybe before that, I don't know)
They are goal orientated, hard working, craftsman. That's the basis of the entire Japanese economical miracle.
They even brought over American consultants to make sure everything was quality - because quality always costs less in the long run. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
Japan and China are very different, and not to be confused.
I am not talking out of school on any of this, and you guys havn't provided one shred of evidence to back up any of your opinions. (China makes stuff so it's going to have quaility issues just like everybody who makes stuff.... blah blah blah)
Whatever............. KRK's.
Steve Henningsgard
New member
Although it might not be entirely relevant, I figured I'd add in my experiences anyway. I purchased a used set of RP5's about a year ago, and they worked great up until a couple of months ago. Now one of the speakers cuts out occasionally, regardless of source or cables. Fit & finish-wise, the plastic rim/bezel sort of thing is coming un-glued on the other one. I suppose after a year of using these entry-level monitors, it is most likely a good time for me to upgrade anyway, but it is quite annoying to have such a debilitating problem with such a vital piece of gear.
My $0.02
My $0.02
They are also xenophobic paranoid fascists who live on an island with no natural resources. Failure was not an option.
Edwards Demming.
Having said that, unlike Japan, and every other country apart from the US and Russia, China has successfully orbited astronauts in space -- an exercise in QC of rather considerable, dare I say, astronomical proportions.
Next to this, while they do a marvelous job, manufacturing microphones, speakers, hard drives, amplifiers, etc. doesn't reside in the same ball-park.
Well I never said everything that comes out of China was not quality.
I said China has quality control issues.
Yes - every country has a quality control issue at some point - but china makes the news everyday due to someone being poisened, toy recalls, etc.
I probably have a several thousand quality items from China in my house right now, including the keyboard I am typing on.
I didn't think anyone would take the comment as "Every single factory in every single town and city in every single province in every part of China produces poor quality product - every single time"
In fact - I would like to someday look at some KRK V8's - I did not realize they we're made in China.
At one point, perhaps, but this in no way describes the culture of today...
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