KHz ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter recorder1234
  • Start date Start date
R

recorder1234

New member
What is Khz ?

Is the higher it is with an audio interface the better quality you get
would an audio interface with 192kHz -24 bit be better than a 96 kHz, 24-Bit audio interface?


Thanks
 
What is Khz ?

Is the higher it is with an audio interface the better quality you get
would an audio interface with 192kHz -24 bit be better than a 96 kHz, 24-Bit audio interface?


Thanks

Theoretically yes, in practice, no.
 
KHz is Kilo Hertz, a measurement of frequency (in this case sampling frequency).
1 Hertz = 1 cycle/second; 1 KHz = 1000 cycles/second.
 
Hi

Thanks

Anyone knows where can I find an audio interface with 4 inputs and that is -192-24 Khz for something like 200 dollars ?
 
The thing is, you don't need to record at 192khz (though most interfaces offer it nowadays, though it really is just a marketing ploy)... I've owned several audio interfaces that can run up to 192khz, and what sample rate do I always chose to record at? 44.1khz. This isn't because my computer cannot handle it or I don't enough room on my hard drives, it is simply because there is no benefit.

Note the word theoretically in gecko's post. What does this mean?

Well, according Nyquist–Shannon sampling theory, the sampling frequency needs to be just over double that of the highest frequency in the signal (often called the Nyquist frequency). If this is the case, then the original signal can be completely, accurately and faithfully reproduced from the digital signal through the clever though mathematically-solid interpolation that goes on in all digital-analog convertors (I don't quite understand the exact mechanisms of the signal reconstruction myself, but it works!)...

Therefore, a signal sampled at 44.1khz will be able to be perfectly reproduced, assuming the original signal was bandlimited with nothing over they nyquist frequency. Human hearing is generally quoted as being in the range of 20hz to 20khz, though you lose the high frequencies with age, and therefore a 44.1khz signal should be all you need. Increasing the sample rate just allows higher frequencies to be sampled, but you can't hear these anyway so why did manufacturers start pushing higher and higher sample rates?

Well, the sampling theory is exactly that - theory - and we all know that putting that theory into practise is never quite as easy as it seems on paper :)

As I said, the original signal being sampled cannot have any high-frequency content over the nyquist frequency... if it does, then the signal will not be sampled frequently enough to record these high frequency sounds and they will become 'aliased' and reconstructed as audible lower-frequencies. This diagram stolen from wikimedia illustrates this quite well...

Aliasing.JPG


So low-pass filters have to be incorporated into the analog-digital converters in order to filter out any frequency content over the nyquist frequency before it is sampled. This is where the problem lies. It is very difficult/impossible to design and build an 'ideal' analog filter that would act as a brick wall to anything above the nyquist frequency, so in reality these filters had to more gently roll off the high frequencies.

The designs of these filters were 'less efficient' than they are nowadays and had a noticable effect / introduced artifacts for very high frequencies. For this reason, converters with higher sample rates were developed that pushed all this filtering mumbo-jumbo into the inaudible range. For example, if you sampled at 96khz the nyquist frequency would be 48khz, so you could have a filter that gently rolled off the highs up to this point without having to worry about intruding on the audible signal.


...but then came along oversampling! :) I think its safe to say that oversampling is used by most ADCs nowadays and it really is a neat idea... the original signal is sampled at a very high sample rate so that the analog filter affects frequencies way above the range of human hearing, but then an ideal digital filter is used before the signal is downsampled to a more sensible rate (e.g. 44.1khz).

You'll find many converters in interfaces nowadays use 128x oversampling... a 44.1khz signal might actually be obtained by sampling the original at ~5.6mhz before filtering and downsampling! The previous technical limitations requiring a higher sample rate are gone. As an offshoot of this, it is all too easy to offer interfaces with sample rates such as 192khz, usually simply as a marketing ploy.

Some people argue that a higher sample rate preserves really high frequency content that we can't hear but we can feel... well, we can't hear it, but I doubt we can feel it as well - that point is debatable. At the most I would say you are just more likely to annoy some nearby dogs! And remember that most mics have a frequency response that starts to tail off long before 20khz, as do most speakers.

I agree that it is possible there might be some benefit to, lets say, running a soft synth at a higher sample rate then downsampling - kind of a DIY oversampling. I'm sure a null-test could easily verify this - truth or otherwise - and it has probably been done many times, but its areas like this that people just don't seem to be able to consistently agree on.

So forgetting all that debatable stuff, what obvious and guaranteed benefits do you get from recording at 192khz?
Well, mainly its just much larger files and much more strain on you computer / lower possible track count :D

Joking aside, the only benefit I can see is to obtain much lower latencies. If the maths in my head is correct, at 44.1khz and having your ASIO buffers set at 512 samples will give you a roundtrip latency of roughly 10ms. At 192khz this is reduced to around 2.5ms. Not a great advantage considering you experience larger delays standing 4m from a speaker, but at least it is an advantage!


Basically, don't get too hung up on sample rate. You'll probably end up running it at 44.1khz anyway...
 
I would actually argue with Mattr.

Many people say they use 16 bit/44.1 kHz recording as this the CD format, and they are right at this point.

I would agree with Mattr that 44.1 kHz is enough to capture the sound, yes.

BUT!

Rememeber that first CDs were capturing the final mastered mix that was made in a fully analog way! So they had to use AD conversion only once!

In the situation of recording at a computer it is different now. You will not notice the 44.1 kHz or 192 kHz on single track. But when you start mixing/processing the tracks recorded with low sample rates you will start hearing a lot of digital noise.

For several reasons.

Many VSTs work with 24bit/96kHz format. It means your track will first have to be converted to this format. So you have converted it once to 44.1 kHz (loose something) than you convert it (again loose something).
And you do it with every track. At the end you start to hear some artifacts, that sometimes are pronounced a lot.

I could speak a lot more on this topic, but what I figured out for myself is the better quality the initial sampling is made, the better the final result is.

Cheerz!!
 
I guess im just not picky.......................

I use a cheap A$$ 99 dollar M-audio fast track USB and I am close to perfectly happy........the only thing that lacks in my opinion are the preamps............

I don't understand extremely technical sound engineering jargon............but I do know how to make a sound...........well sound as good as i possibly can. Fellas..........lets not forget this is the newbie section...............im not a newbie and there are some things that you guys are talking about that have COMPLETLEY LOST ME!!!!!!!! Props to you sirs..............but if it lost me.............someone not new to this.............but still not mastered....................will be completley overwhelmed.


Us new/ not so smart peeps need the KISS method right now!!!!!!!
 
Many people say they use 16 bit/44.1 kHz recording as this the CD format, and they are right at this point.

I may have misssed it but I didn't see that the very learned poster you're quoting said he used 16 bit / 44.1 recording. He just said 44.1 kHz.

The bit rate's a separate discussion, perhaps. :confused:
 
Us new/ not so smart peeps need the KISS method right now!!!!!!!

And in that vein, if you are at that stage in your recording endeavours, then no harm will befall you if you record at 44.1/16 (or maybe 44.1/24, depending on how your interface is set up). I'd further suggest that there is not a lot to be gained by the beginner by doing anything else. There is a high likelihood of other things affecting quality that would overwhelm the notional gains of higher sampling rates.
 
OMG... so if I am recording into a multi tracker at 24 bits, 44.1kHz, then burn my tracks (after mixing) to CD, (16 bit 44.1) then load that into soundforge for light EQ or a smidgeon of compression... then I'm totally wasting my time in addition to just adding noise if I resample to 96kHz or 192 or whatever? I also convert to 32 bit. Why do I do this? damned if I really know... but I thought it was so that whatever effect I was adding was sampled "more" times, so it would apply the effect more precisely. Now this sounds like totally wrong thinking. Am I just adding noise?
 
OMG... so if I am recording into a multi tracker at 24 bits, 44.1kHz, then burn my tracks (after mixing) to CD, (16 bit 44.1) then load that into soundforge for light EQ or a smidgeon of compression...

You should stay in 24 bit until the very end. Only when you burn an actual audio CD should you go to 16 bits.

EDIT: Bunt, if I remember correctly, you have a 788, right??? If that's the case, disregard what I said above. I think the 788 only allows you to burn to 16 bit. If there's a way to extract the individual files at 24 bit, I would do that and then mix in Soundforge.
 
Good memory RAMI! It's a 788 so I can't presently burn to 24 bit. I've been talking to tascam's techies and there may be a way to do this if I buy some special tascam drive that is no longer made. They're supposed to send me some info like a part number in case one turns up in someone's trash can while I'm walking my dog or something.
Thanks very much for responding though, because I take your point even tho I can't actually do that right now.
 
As far as I know... yes!

Well, where do you expect that extra precision to come from? The interpolation used to upsample the file is going to be the same as is used to reconstruct the 44.1k digital signal in the DAC upon playback anyway.

It seems counter-intuitive, but a higher sample rate doesn't really gain you any more 'accuracy or precision' for the stuff that can be sampled, it just increases the highest frequency that can be sampled. Ignoring other possible factors such as clock jitter, etc, that might affect 'accuracy', anything below the nyquist frequency is able to be perfectly reconstructed - the wave is already sampled as accurately as it needs to / can be. If you like to visualise it as a waveform... adding more points on the wave doesn't do anything, because there are already enough points there in the first place to construct that wave - adding more points will just let you distinguish smaller fluctuations in that wave (i.e. higher frequency components of the signal).

It would be kind of like drawing a straight line between two points, then saying that plotting more points along that line would make it more accurate :p... you only need the two points in order to draw a straight line and you already have all the information that you need.

I think the source of some of the misunderstanding comes from the blocky dot-to-dot waveforms shown by many DAWs when you zoom in to a sample level; these give the impression that adding more samples will 'smooth out' the wave and thus make it more true to the original, but this is not the case as the wave gets 'smoothed out' as part of the digital-analogue conversion.


As for the bit depth thing, converting the 24-bit file to 32-bit is just going to fill the bottom 8 bits with zeros - you won't gain anything. The audio engine of the software will be running at 32-bit float (or 64-bit in the case of Reaper, Sonar, etc :) anyway, so there's no point doing this as it will be 'converted' (for need of a better word) as part of its journey through the audio engine and any processing anyway.

Converting a 24-bit file to 32-bit and back again by itself will do nothing... current generation converters are only capable of 24-bit (and the SNR of the analog sources we feed into them would negate the benefits of anything higher anyway)... and don't forget that a 24-bit signal is theoretically and approximately adequate to cover the entire dynamic range of our hearing... so why does a DAW's audio engine run at a higher bit depth?

Well for one thing (whilst its not good practise) the wonders of floating point math means you can forget everything you ever learnt about gain-structure and push things 'quite a way' over 0 dbfs without ever clipping. So long as you bring the level back down below 0 before its dithered and bought back into the realm of fixed-point, then you're fine.

Now, going the other way (down, rather than up), if you were running on a 24-bit fixed-point audio engine then you would start to lose bits off the bottom of a 24-bit file as soon as you turned a track down from unity gain... if you ran this track into a bus and reapplied gain, you wouldn't recover the lost bits.

So when you have lots of tracks being mixed together at various levels, with effects such as reverbs, it is obvious why current DAWs work like they do. You probably haven't thought about this before, but you would certainly notice if you're favourite DAW reverted to fixed-point math!
 
Last edited:
Why do you think 192 kHZ is existing in both cheap and expencieve interfaces and dedicated converters?

In short: this is due to digital noise. at 96 kHz the S/N ratio will gain 3dB and with 192 kHz it will be 6 dB.
Cheerz!
 
well now, Mattr... for a stroppy teenager, you really don't seem to be belligerent or ill-tempered at all?! Maybe I took a bit of a spanking here, but in fact, you have a keen knack for explaining things which are clearly obvious to you but maybe not so smack in the face obvious to those of us whose neurons didn't propagate properly...
Cerebral confessions aside, I just want to say 'thanks' for a very clear explanation. As to "where did I expect that precision to come from"... well, um.. magic fairies? But seriously, how does one know what one does not know unless the question gets asked and someone takes the time to answer. I appreciate it.
 
Good memory RAMI! It's a 788 so I can't presently burn to 24 bit. I've been talking to tascam's techies and there may be a way to do this if I buy some special tascam drive that is no longer made. They're supposed to send me some info like a part number in case one turns up in someone's trash can while I'm walking my dog or something.
Thanks very much for responding though, because I take your point even tho I can't actually do that right now.

Doesn't it just use external SCSI drives for that? SCSI is still made, though you might have to get a pretty bizarre adapter cable to connect a modern SCSI drive to an old HBA. Oh, never mind. I see that they use a proprietary volume format, and I doubt anybody has bothered to reverse engineer it.

If nothing else, you can always play each track one at a time over S/PDIF and record it on your computer with any interface that supports S/PDIF. That should retain the full bit depth. You'll have to do some work lining the tracks back up, but it's a lot easier than re-recording everything. :)
 
I've been recording 24 bit 44.1 kHz for almost 10 years now and have no desire to upgrade.

Let's just say there are roughly 10,000 things on the average home recordist's list of "things I could do to improve my sound" that should be delt with before even thinking about moving to a higher sampling rate.
 
Why do you think 192 kHZ is existing in both cheap and expencieve interfaces and dedicated converters?

In short: this is due to digital noise. at 96 kHz the S/N ratio will gain 3dB and with 192 kHz it will be 6 dB.
Cheerz!
This is all well and good. 44.1 kHz has 90-something db of range. Songs today use about a 6 db range. Songs made before brickwall limiters used about 16 db of range. There are still 70 db or so separating your music from the noise even at 44.1

Not saying rates higher than 44.1 are useless... I'm just saying the benefit is so small that it might as well be off the radar of someone who records in their house. The hum of the hot water heater is probably adding more noise than the sampling frequency anyway.
 
Sampling frequency, unless I'm ridiculously misinformed (which is more than possible), doesn't have anything to do with dynamic range. That's bit depth.
Still, same message applies. 24-bit gives you plenty of dynamic range above the noise floor.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top