Key of a song?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Thorguitarist
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mshilarious said:
But it is. The major scale isn't constructed of equally spaced intervals, which you subsequently prove by showing the irregular intervals. That would be either the whole tone or chromatic scale. The major scale is not the most obvious scale based on the overtone series. The use of twelve notes is arbitrary. Western music considers the major scale as the basis for theory, but other cultures do not.
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Heck... let's all just write using serialism.
 
Key Signature, an excellent question

I guess what I 'meant' was that the intervals between notes, half or whole steps, in the major scale follow a specific pattern. Hopefully I illustrated correctly.

About other more interesting scales...

Learn the major scales to build foundation; however, you get something else with the major scales called modes. Take the C major scale but start
from a different note:

CDEFGABC Ionian, Major scale, Major triad
DEFGABCD Dorian, minor with a flat 7, Minor triad
EFGABCDE Phyrgian, minor with a flat 9, Minor triad
FGABCDEF Lydian, Major with a raised 4th, Major triad
GABCDEFG Mixolydian, Dominant 7th Major triad(Used extensively in blues)
ABCDEFGA Aeolian, Minor (relative minor to C Major) Minor triad
BCDEFGAB Locrian, half diminished, dimished triad, a dark sound

There is a lot of mileage you can get, 7 scales for the price of 1. Also adding a 7th to all of these chords would get you more "flavor":

CEGB C Major 7
DFAC D minor 7
EGBD E minor 7
FACE F Major 7
GBDF G7 (Dominant 7th)
ACEG A minor 7
BDFA B half diminshed

Many other interesting scales are also derived from these scales. If you take the time to learn this much in all 12 keys, you will have 84 scales and associated chords in your vocabulary. It will also be easier to relate other scales to you with this knowledge. And, so you don't get bored, check out the diminished scale, this is a very interesting scale and leads to other discussions:

In the key of C: CDEbFF#G#ABC, transpose to "all" keys. You will see that there is an economy to this scale. I'll let you tell me what it is.

Have fun with it....

ttyl.... :cool:
 
TFranklin said:
In the key of C: CDEbFF#G#ABC, transpose to "all" keys. You will see that there is an economy to this scale. I'll let you tell me what it is.
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It's constructed of minor thirds set off by a semitone such that there are only three diminished scales, just like there is only one chromatic scale and two whole tone scales.

I like it as C D Eb F Gb Ab Bbb B C, since the diminished 7th is double flat. But what's the difference, everybody thinks a #4 and b5 are the same interval.

Regarding serialism, oh yeah. Lemme break out the Schoenberg. That is kickass stuff. I play Pierrot Lunaire when dinner guests stay too long.
 
Dimished scale

Cool character the dimished scale. It's funny, you'll here Jazz musicians and alt. rock guitarists use it alot. I just like using it over dom. 7th chords...

I had hoped that Thorguitarist would take off with that idea. It should get him out of the boring diatonic rut.

I tried to create tone rows along time ago that would overlap to create harmonies. It was kind of cool but I've never really finished a piece with it.

As far as #4 vs. b5, they are the same. I've seen it used both ways. I suppose that is just a matter of convenience in spelling a chord. For example, I prefer to view an Eb7 +4 rahter than b5. With the #4 approach I see/hear an "A" instead of a B double flat. Just my pref, I'm sure you could justify either spelling...

Where did you study music? ttyl....
 
TFranklin--glad to have you here, along with the others. I only know the very basics of theory, and it's great to see some other stuff thrown around to help expand on those basics. Thanks for your input.
 
TFranklin said:
Where did you study music? ttyl....
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Who me? Herndon High School, VA. Mrs. King was my AP Theory instructor. We didn't cover temperaments, but we did do four-part harmonies, a bit of sight singing, intervals, scales, counterpoint, chord progressions, resolution, modulation, etc. I also gleaned bits from music major friends at university, along with my own self-study.

I got interested in temperaments while studing J.S. Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, which of course was not written for equal temperament. #4 and b5 are the same in equal temperament, but I am no longer satisfied with that system. In other temperaments, some keys get #4s and some get b5s, and some get something in between, which among other things contributes to the different character keys are supposed to have.
 
TFranklin said:
Cool character the dimished scale. It's funny, you'll here Jazz musicians and alt. rock guitarists use it alot. I just like using it over dom. 7th chords...
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Why else do you think jazz guys like to use it so much. Most jazz IS just a bunch of 7th chords :cool:
 
Thorguitarist said:
I use the theroy mentioned above as TFranklin mentioned, When i write songs. The only problem i have is scales. I want to add them cause my idols right now are Dream Theater. The scales they use are awesome but i guess when the keyboardist went to julliard at 9 you know how to make some cool music. When i do scales they are usually in the same pattern like B-C-D,E-F-G..Or E, F#, G...boring ones. I want to have some cool sounding songs progressive stuff.
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I hear ya. I've been chasing Petrucci's style for years now. Dream Theater is my favorite band. Big Time.

YOU HAVE TO LEARN ALL THE BORING STUFF!! Remember, not only did Jordan Rudess go to Julliard, but Petrucci, Portnoy and Myung went to Berklee. Petrucci dosen't play the insane shit we love on instinct. He's a very well trained musician who knows the rules he's breaking and why he's breaking them. If you don't know the basic "boring" stuff you can't learn the difficult theory. You have to put the time in. What you're shooting for takes A LOT of discipline. You need to be patient and learn. Nothing worth doing is easy.

I know it's been said 100 times in this thread but if you're planning on playing prog rock, it's essential: Learns the theory well, then throw it out the window. Progressive rock, by nature and definition, does not follow a formula but you can't write outside the rules if you don't know what the rules are.

Progressive rock, particullarly the style you like, is insane difficult to play! :eek: To me, if you're going to call yourself progressive; you better damn well deliver the goods. I hope that didn't sound mean or insulting, that's not my intention. I'm saying that don't just call youself a prog band, earn it. Walk the walk.
 
Yes, I'm well aware. Just think it's cool that rock guitar players picked up on it...
 
Music thoery is extremly dull. No matter how much you love the "magic" of music, the theory will eventually get boring. I've known jazz musicians who can't stand music theory. And also look at B.B. King. Every instruction video you see him in he has to have someone there to interpret what he is doing in music theory....well almost :) I learned some piano (Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata/ Sonata Pathique/ ode to joy/ Pachabell's canon) with basically 6th grade music theory back when they started to take music learning out of grade schools. Then I picked up a guitar and played "from my heart and ear" through the passion of having something around that wasn't constantly trying to convince me into doing drugs like my friends did. Now when I pick up a music theory book it is still boring but the concepts are easy to understand because I am familiar with a basic understanding of music through practice, even if some of it was "bad" practice. Think of it as on the job training that is very useful. Also keep in mind that most of our music theory today was written back in very old times when people were discovering music for the first time. There are some people and music schools that specialize in and alternate way of reading/writing/understanding music which are those who are responsible for the tab era. WHen music theory was first written they actually built their life, society, and religeon around it. It was a huge thing. It wasn't something to keep your head ticking as you headed to work to spend an entire 6,7,8,9,10 hours of your day. It wasn't something to help you through the "bad times" whenever your boy/girl friend whom you've been dating for three weeks broke off the engagement. It did help a whole society
get through bad times of war and they definitly did not jump on a patriotic band wagon all of a sudden whenever somebody drove a market wagon into the side of a castle. You can all throw stones now, I'm sorry. But to loop back around, only venture into music theory as much as your hobby can stand or you'll ruin it for yourself. The mystical discovery and flame will be sucked out of it kinda the way that relationships do whenever you get to know a person more. You'll know if you're singing or playing something right and if you screw it up at least you will still be having fun and not know about it.
Harris
 
If you find it boring, that's your affair; personally, I've always found it interesting. I guess it's like science. For some people, the magic of a sunset is ruined by knowing that the sun is just a big ball of burning hydrogen and it only rises and sets because the earth is spinning about. For others, knowing the facts and having a language to discuss what's really going on only makes the whole thing more fascinating and awesome.

I don't think you can blame theory for trivializing music; blame the invention of recorded sound for that. Making something available at the touch of a button has a tendency to devalue it.
 
Because some of us are interested. You'll find plenty of other forums on here that will suit your needs if you don't like this one.
 
Purge said:
Because some of us are interested. You'll find plenty of other forums on here that will suit your needs if you don't like this one.
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I don't DISlike it, it's just that everything on music theory has been said and the same statements are repeated over and over. Just re-read the thread.
 
Well, not all melodies will contain all of the accidentals.
 
Thats not true.
I know songs that start in Em or D or C or even E7 that are in the key of G and about a billion other exapmes...
I wouldnt worry too much about determing a key of a song, id just write it and let others worry.
 
That's what I said, lol! Rephrase, then: the melody of a song will not necessarily contain all of the key's accidentals.

Okay, barthoque, I'm starting to see your point.
 
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