Key of a song?

[lascalaboy]

It really depends on where you want to go... pivot notes are used for unrelated keys.. sometimes related, but use a combination of pivots, realtive chords and dominants d\and you should get to where you want to go...

"Modulate in 3 chords or less.. or your money back!"

 

[bennychico11]

dare i mention it???...i think i dare

if the "key" of a song is decided by how many sharps and flats are written like dr1keyz said, then i'm really screwed trying to find the key of any atonal peice

I still stick with my opinion that keys are there only to help the musician and composer and aren't a required thing.

 

[Thorguitarist]

I guess it really doesnt matter...But i still wanted to know how to make me a better composer and i guess if you can pick out the key of a song, by listening to it you might be ale to transcribe it. I use Guitar Pro 4 and in the program you can submit your tabs(which can also be viewed as sheet) to this website mysongbook.com there you can download tabs and learn a song. the more people that contribute the easier it is.. I hope you see where im going with this. I just thought it would help me be a better musician

 

[lascalaboy]

dare i mention it???...i think i dare

if the "key" of a song is decided by how many sharps and flats are written like dr1keyz said, then i'm really screwed trying to find the key of any atonal peice

I still stick with my opinion that keys are there only to help the musician and composer and aren't a required thing.

yep.. if you look for a key in atonal musoic you're stuffed... a = no, tonal = key
atonal = no tonal centre. I have not heard any pop.rock stuff that is atonal tho... basically, tonality (in art music) went out the door in the early 20th century, but came back again in the the 80s I think...

 

[Doombot]

I guess it really doesnt matter...But i still wanted to know how to make me a better composer and i guess if you can pick out the key of a song, by listening to it you might be ale to transcribe it. I use Guitar Pro 4 and in the program you can submit your tabs(which can also be viewed as sheet) to this website mysongbook.com there you can download tabs and learn a song. the more people that contribute the easier it is.. I hope you see where im going with this. I just thought it would help me be a better musician

Learn the theory. That WILL make you a better composer. I never bothered to learn theory. I've always gone by what felt right. Granted that gave me a really good feel for the instrument, and how to manipulate it, but it also short-changed me because I don't know what I'm playing. You have to know the rules before you can break em. Purge just started teaching me theory and I can not tell you the diffrence it makes! It's all the stuff I always have done but now I know why it works, and also why it does not.

If you want to be able to tell what key a song is played in just by hearing it, go for it; but it will not necessarily make you a better musician. Remember, music is all about communicating a feeling. Triggering memories. That's the goal. If you want to become a theory god, it won't hurt by any means, but don't sacrififce feeling and art for it. In the end YOUR ear will be the judge.

Ultimately, practice is the only thing that will make you a better musician.

 

[Thorguitarist]

Wow, well put doombot. Thanks

 

[ikabodd]

The simplest way I've learned to identify keys is 1) I was, in fact, informed that a song will almost always start (and usually) end on the key note. Of course, there are exceptions to this, but it does work most of the time. Also, know the "patterns" of scales. (Pentatonic? I can't remember my music theory vocab, so please forgive me.) For example, a major scale will always follow these steps: whole step , whole step , half step, whole, whole, whole, half. (This is easier to picture on a keyboard than guitar.) Different types of scales (major, minor,etc) have different patterns, starting on the route note. (ie, C Major starts on c and continues up the scale in the pattern mentioned above.
I have no idea if that's any help, just helped me out a lot when learning scales. Also, to go along with the other posts, I believe at least some understanding of theory is important with music composition. Yes, there is always room for experimentation, but I've heard way too many musicians trying to be "brilliantly" different and just sounding like crap. While music will always be a freely expressive art form, there is also a physics to it, which to me makes it such an amazing art form in the first place. To me, a great musician understands these "rules", follows them, and still manages to amaze your ears.
Just my two cents.

 

[lykwydchykyn]

2 things I maintain about music theory:

First, it shouldn't be called "music theory". It should be called "music theories", because each genre and style of music develops its own set of properties and defining features. Someone earlier mentioned "classical theory" vs "normal theory"; this is what I'm talking about. But there isn't "normal theory", there's "pop theory", "rock theory", "20th century atonal theory", "hip hop theory", etc. -- every style is defined by certain common elements and aesthetic values, as well as a terminology for its elements. That constitutes a "theory" for that type of music.

Second, music theory isn't about "rules" in some authoritative sense. So many musicians dislike theory because it starts talking about rules and they react with "screw the rules! this is rock'n'rollllllll!!!". Music theory isn't some school marm standing over you with a yardstick ready to slap your knuckles if you break the "rules". It's a set of observations about how music is constructed, and what we all naturally tend to do when going with how things feel. It also tells us what a listener will expect to hear in a certain musical context. Knowing that, we can play with those expectations. For example, in rock a snare drum usually hits 2 and 4. That could be a "rule" of rock music theory. But knowing that a listener expects that, you can play something different here and there (like say, snare hits on 2 and the & of 3) to create a syncopated, off-beat feel.

Music theory really is nothing more than someone taking a bunch of songs that everyone agreed was really good, and analyzing it to figure out why it's really good, then writing down the common features. Nothing to be scared of or feel limited by.

 

[bennychico11]

yep.. if you look for a key in atonal musoic you're stuffed... a = no, tonal = key
atonal = no tonal centre. I have not heard any pop.rock stuff that is atonal tho... basically, tonality (in art music) went out the door in the early 20th century, but came back again in the the 80s I think...

yeah i know, i was just kidding about the atonal stuff. and, no i haven't heard any pop/rock stuff that is atonal either. but then again i think that's because the normal consumers of our world don't find it pleasing to the ear. i'm very much into weird music though. not necessarily all atonal peices of the early 1900s or more recent tape and instrument peices....but i love weird ass jazz jam band stuff.

 

[Purge]

2 things I maintain about music theory:

First, it shouldn't be called "music theory". It should be called "music theories", because each genre and style of music develops its own set of properties and defining features. Someone earlier mentioned "classical theory" vs "normal theory"; this is what I'm talking about. But there isn't "normal theory", there's "pop theory", "rock theory", "20th century atonal theory", "hip hop theory", etc. -- every style is defined by certain common elements and aesthetic values, as well as a terminology for its elements. That constitutes a "theory" for that type of music.

Second, music theory isn't about "rules" in some authoritative sense. So many musicians dislike theory because it starts talking about rules and they react with "screw the rules! this is rock'n'rollllllll!!!". Music theory isn't some school marm standing over you with a yardstick ready to slap your knuckles if you break the "rules". It's a set of observations about how music is constructed, and what we all naturally tend to do when going with how things feel. It also tells us what a listener will expect to hear in a certain musical context. Knowing that, we can play with those expectations. For example, in rock a snare drum usually hits 2 and 4. That could be a "rule" of rock music theory. But knowing that a listener expects that, you can play something different here and there (like say, snare hits on 2 and the & of 3) to create a syncopated, off-beat feel.

Music theory really is nothing more than someone taking a bunch of songs that everyone agreed was really good, and analyzing it to figure out why it's really good, then writing down the common features. Nothing to be scared of or feel limited by.

Awesome post. When it comes down to it, "feel" IS more important than anything, and I think we can assume that none of the pro-theory folks on this board are going to say, "if you don't know this stuff, then you're shit." At the same extent, consider this: Will studying very basic theory make you a crappier musician? No. Does it have a chance of making you better? Yes. Can studying this stuff make you play in ways you never thought of before? Absolutely. When you want to throw down some jamming with a random musician, it can help trememdously to know what key you're playing in. When you want to start composing your own stuff, it can help tremendously to have an idea of a key signature already mapped out for you (especially if you're not a perfect "play it by ear/head/soul" person) to give you an idea of what kind of a sound you're going for and where to put your fingers for that next chord.

To some extent, everybody studies theory. Any guitarist will tell you that when you want to rock out with something that sounds like giant testicles crushing the universe, you're going to slam out a power chord. Guess what? That's theory. No one has ever picked up a guitar without that knowledge and just instinctively thought "I bet if I put my fingers here, I can make this sound heavy as hell."

That being said (and just to echo everyone here), breaking the rules is ultimately what will make you a unique musician. But seriously, it's not a horrible idea to actually learn the rules first. It's not hard, and chances are huge that you will discover something of massive interest that will make your playing exponentially better.

 

[grn]

http://www.musictheory.net

 

[Jack Russell]

Just something to add, which I've been puzzling over for days, not knowing exactly how to articulate it....but I'll suck down some coffee and have a go:

Someone said above that the key of the song is all about the sharps and flats. Well, let's go back to the history of that. In the 'age of the keyboard' which is also known as the 'classical age,' that is, in the days of Beethoven, most composers worked from the keyboard. Keyboards are linear instruments--all the notes are in a line from left to right, lowest to highest. This is great, and easy to comprehend (lots of keyboardists seem to be able to pick up 'music theory' more easily than guitarists), but there is a problem: temperament. Keyboards are always tuned to the key of C first, all the white keys, which tend to be most often used in composing. The black keys (the sharps and flats) are actually inferior because of the tuning. Although you can tune to C and get all the whilte keys to be exactly in tune, the nature of how keyboards were built, the temperament, of how notes are broken down meand that the sharps and flats are all just slightly 'out of tune.' Piano tuners have to compensate for this innate inefficiency of the keyboard when they tune it: they will intentionally go off pitch just a tiny amount when tuning each note to correct for temperament, thus making the whole keyboard seem to be mostly in tune throughout. This is not easy to explain, but the point is that, in terms of the keyboard, the more sharps and flats you use (black keys), the more 'off tune' the composition will sound, even though this off-tune feel is almost imperceptable. Example: a composition in C major has the best even temperament. Yet, if you moved the same entire composition up a half step to C# major, then you'd have the most sharps of any key (7, I think), and it would have the worst temperament, and it would sound just slightly off tune.

Now, in 2004, many would argue that after so many years of rock and roll, that we are in the Age of the Guitar. The perspective of the musician (guitarist) to the instrument (guitar) is about patterns on the neck, not a linear logical progession from left to right as it is for a keyboardist. It is not about white keys and black keys for guitar-players. So, for todays guitar-oriented musician, looking at the traditional music staff with the sharps and flats will seem alien.

So perhaps "The Key of a Song" had more meaning to those composers in Beethoven's ago, and less relevence in today's world?

There. time for another cup o' Joe!!

 

[lykwydchykyn]

While pianos are still stretch-tuned (slightly out of tune at the top and bottom of the keyboard), the use of equal temperment (which was not used in the classical period) has made the different keys pretty much the same. So in a sense, if you're talking about WHICH key a song is in, yeah, it's not as relevent.
But I would have to say that key itself is still very much relevent. Standard notation isn't as relevent for a lot of folks, but the concept of key transcends notation. Key isn't about sharps or flats; it's about a tonal center and about context. A D chord in the key of D is the same notes as any other D chord, but in the key of G it does different things to the music. The key creates a sense of context for what's played.
Besides, sharps and flats exist whether they're played with black keys, frets, valves, or a mouse. The notation and terminology is keyboard-centric, but the ideas behind it are universal to western music.

 

[Purge]

Now, in 2004, many would argue that after so many years of rock and roll, that we are in the Age of the Guitar. The perspective of the musician (guitarist) to the instrument (guitar) is about patterns on the neck, not a linear logical progession from left to right as it is for a keyboardist. It is not about white keys and black keys for guitar-players. So, for todays guitar-oriented musician, looking at the traditional music staff with the sharps and flats will seem alien.

Great point, JR. With a keyboard, you have the one "easily identifiable pattern"--the white stuff. When doing guitar theory, you can take that pattern and move it anywhere on the neck. More often than not, I won't know the name of a note that I play high on the neck (because I don't really need to), but I know that if I put my pinky "here, it's gonna sound fine."

Still curious what all everybody plays, and how you approach this stuff. For me, it's all about the patterns first and I learn the notes later.

 

[Jack Russell]

Still curious what all everybody plays, and how you approach this stuff. For me, it's all about the patterns first and I learn the notes later.

Well, I started on bass, so my conception of music was based on funky bass riffs, with the chords added later. i usually added chords that made no sense, until I learned more about music theory.

At one point I said "Aha! you can play notes in the bass run that are in the chord!" That was an exciting day.

 

[JaQsonA1]

Why in the heck is this topic still going?

 

[bennychico11]

Why in the heck is this topic still going?

come on....we HAVE to debate whether or not the latest Britney Spears song has a secondary dominant leading to a half diminished with an added 13th in the 7th bar.

....hmmm, or maybe it's just a Bb chord for the entire song.

 

[TFranklin]

Key Signature, an excellent question

So much mis-understanding. The posts which include the major scales and start you with the root, 4th, and 5th construction of chords are a great place to start. You need to study music theory or you will forever be limited in your creativity. Don't believe that "ignorance is bliss". Music theory is fun to learn and will enhance your enjoyment of music and compositional efforts. Start with the C Major scale: CDEFGABC

Root Chord, known as "tonic"
Starts on the first note of the C Major scale, CEG
The "4" Chord is built on the 4th note of the scale, FAC
The "5" Chord is build on the 5th note of the scale, GBD

These three chords are the basis of most simple harmony
and melody in a major key.

What is C Major? Why is it a "Major" scale? What makes it Major?

The Major scale is constructed of equally spaced intervals. For example:

CDEFGABC

C to D, notes are a whole step (one note exists between, C# in this case)
D to E, whole step (one note exists between, D# in this case)
E to F, half step (no notes between these two notes)
F to G, whole step (one note exists between, F# in this case)
G to A, whole step (one note exists between, G# in this case)
A to B, whole step (one note exists between, A# in this case)
B to C, half step (no notes between these two notes)

So there is half step between the 3rd and 4th note of the major scale
and a half step between the 7th and Root(1rst note) of the major scale.
This is true for all 12 major scales. Using a piano keyboard can help with
visualizing this relationship. Let's build the G major scale:

GABCDEF#G

G to A, whole step
A to B, whole step
B to C, half step
C to D, whole step
D to E, whole step
E to F#, whole step
F# to G, half step

It always works. This was invented with the modern piano and is called the equal temperment system. All keys "sound the same", although those with perfect pitch can sense the exact frequency of a pitch.

Major keys tend to sound "happy" for lack of a better term. The characteristics of this scale are heavily used in all types of music. Minor keys are a different story, not in this post.

Key signature can define the key but if your not reading music this doesn't get you to far. Sometimes a song might not start on the root chord but as mentioned they usually end on the tonic or "resolve". Half steps are used as "leading" tones that "pull" towards other chords. If you changed the order of notes in a G chord:

D, GB then follow this chord with E, GC you will hear that the B resolves to the C, the G remains common but functions as different chord tone and that D moves up to E. These relationships define the "key center". There's more background information to make this clear but this gives you a start.

The "why" and "who" said so isn't a leap of faith. When you learn about the "harmonic series" some of these mysteries are solved rather easily. Increase your knowledge of theory and you will unlock your imagination. As a composer you want to control the music not vice versa. Wow, I've said quit enough. Please feel free to ask follow up questions, as you can tell I'm not afraid to answer<G>

 

[Thorguitarist]

I use the theroy mentioned above as TFranklin mentioned, When i write songs. The only problem i have is scales. I want to add them cause my idols right now are Dream Theater. The scales they use are awesome but i guess when the keyboardist went to julliard at 9 you know how to make some cool music. When i do scales they are usually in the same pattern like B-C-D,E-F-G..Or E, F#, G...boring ones. I want to have some cool sounding songs progressive stuff.

 

[mshilarious]

What is C Major? Why is it a "Major" scale? What makes it Major?

The Major scale is constructed of equally spaced intervals. For example . . .

The "why" and "who" said so isn't a leap of faith. When you learn about the "harmonic series" some of these mysteries are solved rather easily.

But it is. The major scale isn't constructed of equally spaced intervals, which you subsequently prove by showing the irregular intervals. That would be either the whole tone or chromatic scale. The major scale is not the most obvious scale based on the overtone series. The use of twelve notes is arbitrary. Western music considers the major scale as the basis for theory, but other cultures do not.