Key of a song?

[osiris]

The 'key' of a song is the chord that that song begins with.

If you're playing "Me and Bobby McGee' and your band members all started playing G chord, that's the 'key' you are playing in. The 'key' of a song is just a clue to the rest of the players to play the song in the same position, if the lead guitarist starts the song with a run in the G position, then the rhythm guitarist had better be playing a G chord and the bassist had better be playing a run in G position or everything will sound like chit.

Tony.

The key is not always determined by the first chord. The key is determined by the tonal center of the scale, the tonic. It is where the music resolves-not always the first chord.
Bobby mcgee changes key halfway through.

 

[mshilarious]

I'm kinda splitting hairs here since proper mathematical naming of music really has nothing to do with whether or not it sounds good, but a song technically is never going to be in a "minor key".

I don't agree with that. First off the major key isn't mathematical, it's arbitrary. For example, in the overtone series, the b7 comes long before the 7.

Since the major scale is thus not naturally determined, it's equally arbitrary to deny that minor keys exist.

Finally, it goes against hundreds of years of tradition to label a minor key piece as it corresponding major key. Bach did not write the Mass in D, Beethoven did not write Symphony No. 5 in Eb

 

[lascalaboy]

C maj and A min may have the same key signature, but in a min key you always raise the 7th, meaning the chords used in the key s are different:

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim

as opposed to

Am, Bdim, C, Dm, E, F, G#dim

The degrees of the scale have different tonalities... they are different keys.

When you have your tune, you will innevitably hear the note that phrases resolve to, that is most likely going to be your tonic, so figure out the scale for that key and then check that your tune fits that scale...

Once you have done that, you get to figure out which chords to use, I found, when I was doing all my 4-part harmonic inventions at uni, that this diagram helped:

Write out the tonic scale, and then create the appropriate triad on each degree of the scale, and then label the chord if you wish, also, add 7ths etc and you can see all the notes to use, and then, the chords as well.
For C maj:

1. C - E - G (B) Maj
2. D - F - A (C) Min
3. E - G - B (D) Min
4. F - A - C (E) Maj
5. G - B - D (F) Maj
6. A - C - E (G) Min
7. B - D - F (A) Dim

You can see that chords, I IV & V are Maj, these are the primary triads. Also, instead of using the dominant (V) as a candence all the time, you can try using chord ii (with or without 7th). It will give the same candential sound, but with a different flavour...

Hope this helps.

 

[mshilarious]

C maj and A min may have the same key signature, but in a min key you always raise the 7th

That's only true for harmonic minor and ascending melodic minor. There are also the descending melodic minor and natural minor scales which have a minor 7th. The 7th in a harmonic minor scale will be written as an accidental.

 

[Purge]

Finally, it goes against hundreds of years of tradition to label a minor key piece as it corresponding major key. Bach did not write the Mass in D, Beethoven did not write Symphony No. 5 in Eb

LOL, good point!! After I posted that, I looked at it and went "hmmm...I'm talking out of my ass again." Kudos for keeping me honest, and next time I'll follow that gut instinct that says "go edit your post--you're talking out of your ass."

This is good thread folks. Let's keep it going. I'm interested in this stuff, and I like learning what I can from other people. If anybody's got any stupid questions, I can answer those, and for real questions it looks like we've got some good theory gurus on the board.

 

[mshilarious]

LOL, good point!! After I posted that, I looked at it and went "hmmm...I'm talking out of my ass again."

OK, my turn. I just realized I have no idea how modes are usually notated. Any help?

 

[Purge]

Guess I'm kinda wondering that too. Assuming a song is in Amin, then wouldn't the staff still show no #'s or b's in the key notation? Lascala?

For the other modes, I guess we think of them as just offshoots of minor or major, depending on the 3rd's relation to the root. (1 1/2 steps it's basically a minor scale, and 2 steps it's basically major.) If I'm diddling on a C lydian run and wanted to write it down (assuming that the only context of my "song" is a background C chord), would I notate this as being in G, or would I write in C and just sharp the 4th (F to F#)?

 

[mshilarious]

Guess I'm kinda wondering that too. Assuming a song is in Amin, then wouldn't the staff still show no #'s or b's in the key notation? Lascala?

Well the minor key, yes it's written as you describe. In classical theory minor usually isn't thought of as a mode.

 

[Purge]

That's where I'm getting confused then. Classical theory is something I don't know shit about, compared to "normal(?)" theory. What Lascala wrote looked like harmonic minor to me (and I can't even remember what melodic minor is...), and I thought that was something different than just "regular" minor, where you're #ing the 7th, thereby enabling you to play the only scale Yngwie knows.

 

[lascalaboy]

Yeah, the minor scales always confuse me too... but if a piece is in A minor, then you raise the 7th, meaning a whole bunch of G# accidentals - yes and a blank key signature.

The key signature for relative maj/min keys is always the same, but the min will have accidentals (the raised 7th).

What do you mean "normal" theory and "classical" theory?
That is normal theory...

BTW... modes aren't offshoots of min scales, modes existed before Major and Minor keys did... the modern idea of Maj and Min are the offshoots...

 

[lascalaboy]

when you want to get into modulations.. let me konw.. I love figuring out how to get from one side of the cirlce of 5ths to the other... in 2 easy chords....

 

[Jack Russell]

Just coming back to this great thread after a few days....

I vote for 'the central tonic' as the key of the song. This isn't really always a purely technical resolution. If you are playing all white keys on a piano, but are playing sad, morose-sounding stuff, well, then I'd say the tonic is likely to be A. Perhaps It is a feel, not a math problem?

The question of modes is confusing to me though. Modes are patterns of intervals. You can, again, be playing all white keys, but announce that you are playing in F locrian (correct me if I'm wrong...its been a long time since music theory class!!), and the tonic is F....or IS it?

 

[dr1keyz]

Key Of A Song

THe key of a song is determined by the number of sharps and/or flats in a particular key...

Example: C has no sharps or flats
G has 1 sharp (f sharp)
...D=2. ....A=3.....E=4....B=5....F#=6....C#=7

F has 1 flat
...Bb=2...Eb=3...Ab=4....Db=5...Gb=6....Cb=7

As a musician you should be so proficient with your keys that it should come second nature.

 

[mshilarious]

Yeah, the minor scales always confuse me too... but if a piece is in A minor, then you raise the 7th, meaning a whole bunch of G# accidentals - yes and a blank key signature.

But that's not mandatory. You don't HAVE to play in harmonic minor.

I love the Yngwie comment, absolutely hilarious. In spite of Yngwie:

I highly recommend study of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, in this case not the fugues but the preludes. They are like little lessons in chord progressions, modulation, harmonic minor, etc. Most of them are playable on guitar if you don't play keyboards.

 

[Thorguitarist]

Finally I made a well worth post...while trying to inform myself...and know i have...Here's another question though...When creating or playing a scale should the scale began in the key that the song is in or from the last note/chord that was hit..

 

[lascalaboy]

But that's not mandatory. You don't HAVE to play in harmonic minor.

true.. but if we're talking pop music, most 'minor' songs are...

 

[Purge]

Yeah, the minor scales always confuse me too... but if a piece is in A minor, then you raise the 7th, meaning a whole bunch of G# accidentals - yes and a blank key signature.

The key signature for relative maj/min keys is always the same, but the min will have accidentals (the raised 7th).

What do you mean "normal" theory and "classical" theory?
That is normal theory...

BTW... modes aren't offshoots of min scales, modes existed before Major and Minor keys did... the modern idea of Maj and Min are the offshoots...

I think it's just semantics at this point. I'll admit, all of my "theory" is basically self-taught, and I can't come close to claiming the kind of education that you've had with it. So my "terminology" (or lack thereof...) is going to be fairly wrong sometimes, even if I have a decent idea about what notes I'm supposed to play.

"normal" vs. classical theory--All I mean from this is that (and I think mshilarious is coming from the same direction) you must have been taught something that is beyond me as far as the minor vs. harmonic minor thing goes. You have a normal minor scale (just the 6th mode of a major scale, same notes) and that scale would become something totally different if you raise the 7th--I just thought that it was a totally separate scale (harmonic minor). I play songs in A minor, and rest assurred there will be plenty of G notes in there. I don't hit the G# unless I've got that E major chord at the end of my progression. I admit though, this might be just coming from a rock guitar mentality.

And yeah, the "offshoots" thing is another one of those bad examples of my crappy terminology. When I teach guitar, that's just one of the easier ways of an "intro to modes"...by explaining that the human ear is able to easily distinguish the difference between major 3rd and minor 3rd before going on to a more in-depth look at the subtle tonality differences in the modes. I've just found that it's easy to explain to people that lydian and mixolydian are quite similar to major scales (only one note different in each of those) and once they've got that concept down, then show them how the modes actually fit into everything properly.

Your comment about modulations, BTW...I would totally be interested in this (or anything else you've got!) because this is something I know jack shit about. I don't know any of the theory behind modulations at all, and would definitely like to learn.

 

[Purge]

Finally I made a well worth post...while trying to inform myself...and know i have...Here's another question though...When creating or playing a scale should the scale began in the key that the song is in or from the last note/chord that was hit..

Yes, no, neither, and either! Any of the notes in a scale will work, although your ear will probably be more responsive to the 1st, 3rd, or 5th.

 

[lascalaboy]

That's cool... you're obviously 1000x better at guitar than me! And I have not a big idea on how guitarist talk about scales... (I'm actually an opera singer, and have done a bit composition...)

Modulations are fun.. there's easy ones, like changing to a relative key (C to Am, or C to F or G) but I like the ones where you have to use pivots notes and get from say C to Abm... yay (C (pivot on the note E) E to Abm Eb7 Abm)

 

[Purge]

Ooh ooh! That's it! Why in the hell did that never occur to me?! I'm going to be trying that, and I'm also printing out your post about the triads--that was cool. What about modulations that don't use a pivot point like that?

Opera, huh? Nice! I was going to ask what instruments you guys all played, especially since I'm sure we would all approach theory quite differently. Good to know.