Farview
Well-known member
You can always get by knowing how to do something, but you can't be truly great without knowing WHY to do something.bennychico11 said:
BentRabbit
New member
xfinsterx said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Reminds me of a time back in 'the good old days' when a well-intentioned (albeit, pretty inebriated) fella came up to me when we were on a break and said: "All ya gotta do, if ya wanna make it in the music business, is: Write hit songs..."
(geeeze... who knew?)
Dave G
Purge
Traitorous Usurper
xfinsterx said:
True enough. But it's a lot easier to say this if you've actually been playing awhile. If "playing from the heart" is all it really took, then any of us should have been able to pick up an instrument for the very first time and somehow instinctively know exactly where our fingers were supposed to go. (I know this is isn't what you're implying, so don't worry--I'm not just trying to be a dick...) I think a lot of people are put off by the idea of theory claiming that they don't want their music to become a mathematics problem, and that's pretty understandable. But knowing some basics will never make your playing worse, and it isn't nearly as difficult as people initially think. And I totally agree with mshilarious--study the book first, then throw it out the window. I think too many people out there ignore the first part of that sentence and they cheat themselves in the long run.
Definitely agree with you on the "how to write a hit song" thing. That's just fucking stupid.
bennychico11
...
Farview said:
mshilarious said:
Well I know the why and the how already....but mshilarious said it better than I could though (at least in respect to compositions being too repetitive and simple....do you realize how many peices are in Bb or C just because people know those keys and don't know how to experiment with new ones?) I was just saying not to center on creating a key for your music. people worry too much about that. write the music and then figure out what key it is later to help out musicians.
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tigertales
New member
Songs Key
The 'key' of a song is the chord that that song begins with.
If you're playing "Me and Bobby McGee' and your band members all started playing G chord, that's the 'key' you are playing in. The 'key' of a song is just a clue to the rest of the players to play the song in the same position, if the lead guitarist starts the song with a run in the G position, then the rhythm guitarist had better be playing a G chord and the bassist had better be playing a run in G position or everything will sound like chit.
Tony.
Thorguitarist said:
The 'key' of a song is the chord that that song begins with.
If you're playing "Me and Bobby McGee' and your band members all started playing G chord, that's the 'key' you are playing in. The 'key' of a song is just a clue to the rest of the players to play the song in the same position, if the lead guitarist starts the song with a run in the G position, then the rhythm guitarist had better be playing a G chord and the bassist had better be playing a run in G position or everything will sound like chit.
Tony.
Mark7
Well-known member
Purge said:
Very nice, except for one tiny detail. Chords are made up of the 1st 3RD and 5th notes of the scale. The 4th only appears in Sus4 chords or an octave higher in 11th and 13th chords.
Mark7
Well-known member
tigertales said:
That'd be fine if you only ever play songs using one chord. When you start adding them it gets kind of tricky to follow unless you have some idea of what should come next.
It also helps to know the key if you're going to be using sevenths and other extended chords, because different degrees of the scale produce different versions of each. The chords built on the root and fourth degrees produce Major 7th chords, the chord built on the fifth degree produces a Dominant 7th chord (usually just called a 7th), the chords built on the 2nd, 3rd and 6th degrees produce Minor 7th chords and the chord built on the seventh degree produces a Diminished 7th. Likewise for 9ths, 11ths and 13ths.
Purge
Traitorous Usurper
Nah, you got me wrong. I wasn't talking about chord construction, I was talking about using those notes as root notes for your chords. The 1st note, used as the root of a major chord, the 4th note used as the root of a major chord, and the 5th note used as the root of a major chord. Hence, the phrase "I, IV, V" progression being used. Badly worded, I realize, but it should still be pretty evident that we're talking about two different things when you read over my post again.Mark7 said:
bennychico11
...
tigertales said:
ummm....close, but no. Probably not even half the songs in the entire history of music have started with the chord that corresponds to it's key signature.
T
Thorguitarist
New member
Ramble On by Zeppelin starts on an E chord, yet the song is in A. I forgot about the circle of fifths. Since i dunno how to determine a key usually i just ask my bassist "hey what note are you hitting"? and i use that notes chord, scale, whathave you. We did make a song I'm guessing it's in C# or i guess Db and it took us like 3 days to find a third riff in the song that would go back into the first. I finally came up with something that was played and octave higher than the first riff. So I'm guessing that the key of a song is determind at the end of writing it? Now that i look at the chart setup by Purge (thanks!) It might be in B
M
mindwave_21
New member
Actually, the song starts on an A and slides to the V chord if you listen carefully to the acoustic intro
. Don't mean to get too technical, but just wanted to put that out there. I'm not sure, but I think the reason a lot of rock songs start in key is to get you immediately familiar with the song and make it catchy. Since the I chord is the strongest and most secure of any of the chords in a key, they stick with that for some sort of aural reinforcement to their hit song. Jazz/fusion/prog rock may be a little different, as the main appeal is complexity, rule breaking, and harmonic richness... Anyways, that's all just my opinion.Sorry for the generalizations on genres.
T
Thorguitarist
New member
It starts on E moves to a E7sus4 then a Esus4 to a A....I have the official tab book. I've encloused the Guitar Pro 4 tab that I made using the tab book. It's the first 4 bars. Hopefully the picture is good enough to see
Attachments
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Minnows Larkin
New member
tigertales said:
Well, actually, that's not necessarily true. A song may begin on an A minor chord, for instance, and the key it is in is C.
Jack Russell
I smell home cookin!
What a great thread!!
I've struggled with this concept for a long time. But here's my thinking now after writing tons of songs and almost always breaking the rule of "one key for a song": To me it boils down to a philosophical dilemma, not a tonic/musical issue: staying in a certain key leads to predictability, simplicity, and perhaps even a more 'humable' tune for the listener. This translates into a more 'commercial' song, which some would say is a key element in being successful. But, not to my ear...and no doubt it comes down to personal taste. Breaking into a different key in a song is an effective way to make the progression move forward and have a more 'original' sound to it, more complexity certainly, and more depth to the composition. What I find is that breaking out of the main 'key' allows the song to have a sense of 'getting somewhere' from the start to the end. So, a key change can do the same thing a bridge does.
Although, i have to admit, I'm working a tune that has probably at least 6 key changes (and it is a bitch to sing let me tell you). It might be that the composition, now on the floor of studio unfinished, is just a failure, or is just so different sounding that it is really a gem that needs more polish? I don't know the answer.
Well that's my 2 cents. I do agree with "learn the rules, then break them. As long as you know which rules you are breaking, it is o.k. to do so."
I've struggled with this concept for a long time. But here's my thinking now after writing tons of songs and almost always breaking the rule of "one key for a song": To me it boils down to a philosophical dilemma, not a tonic/musical issue: staying in a certain key leads to predictability, simplicity, and perhaps even a more 'humable' tune for the listener. This translates into a more 'commercial' song, which some would say is a key element in being successful. But, not to my ear...and no doubt it comes down to personal taste. Breaking into a different key in a song is an effective way to make the progression move forward and have a more 'original' sound to it, more complexity certainly, and more depth to the composition. What I find is that breaking out of the main 'key' allows the song to have a sense of 'getting somewhere' from the start to the end. So, a key change can do the same thing a bridge does.
Although, i have to admit, I'm working a tune that has probably at least 6 key changes (and it is a bitch to sing let me tell you). It might be that the composition, now on the floor of studio unfinished, is just a failure, or is just so different sounding that it is really a gem that needs more polish? I don't know the answer.
Well that's my 2 cents. I do agree with "learn the rules, then break them. As long as you know which rules you are breaking, it is o.k. to do so."
Jack Russell
I smell home cookin!
Minnows Larkin said:
That is a good point. A song that begins with A minor, then goes to C major (the relative major of A minor), would most likely be in the key of C. But that depends on whether you play mostly A minor chords or C major ones. If it was more often in A minor, then I'd say the key is A minor. The melody would be the deciding factor. Is it morose, sad, and minor sounding? Then it would be A minor. If it is more happy and uplifting, it would be C major. But the key signature in either case would be the same.
Farview
Well-known member
I'm not sure that anyone is saying that a song needs to be in one key all the way through. It is just easier to explain that way. Knowing waht key you are in shouldn't be limiting, it should free you up to the posibilities of what could happen next.
Purge
Traitorous Usurper
Actually, this isn't entirely accurate, but it brings up a good point regarding modes. Either way, the song will be in the key of C. I'm kinda splitting hairs here since proper mathematical naming of music really has nothing to do with whether or not it sounds good, but a song technically is never going to be in a "minor key". When you look at a staff of music, all of those little sharps and flats at the beginning don't care what the tonality of the song is--they only care what notes are being displayed on the staff. Minor is simply one of the modes of a key. Similarly, a song wouldn't be said to be in the key of "G Mixolydian" either--that would still be C. On the other hand, the terminology is useful in jamming or songwriting with a band. Knowing those additional modes and communicating that way can make a lot more sense than just trying to begin by figuring out what the hell key we're all supposed to be playing in. If everyone in the band feels like playing "Sober" by Tool for example, the feel of the song is D Phrygian, so I'll begin there with my egotistical and long winded guitar solo.Jack Russell said:
Kinda makes that Spinal Tap "D minor" joke a little more interesting, doesn't it? Apparently, "F" is the saddest of all keys...
Purge
Traitorous Usurper
Just to throw some other useless info out there, you can have a song in the key of C without ever even playing a C note. If all the other notes consist of A,B,D,E,F,G then (since this doesn't fit into anything else up there in my reference chart of doom) you're still playing in C. Creepy.
R
radiorickm
New member
keys
well, there is a hell of a lot of good information in this post.
but i think the root question remaines unanswered. What determines the key.
Well when you write the song, you use notes. When notes are placed into scales (like a major scale) there are notes that are "happy" together and fit well. Thats where the 1-4-5 stuff comes in. This is music theory. There are all kind of chords, chord progressions, and all kind of different scales. Major, minor, pentatonic etc....
now, if you are playing your tune on the piano say, and all of the notes end up being on the white keys, you are probably playing in the key of "C".
Each key has a different number of sharp and flat notes. If every time you play and one note is #, that is refelected in the key signature. This is placed at the very front of the piece of music. The key of C has no flats or sharps. The key of G has one #, D has two.
So, the notes that you play, determine what key you are playing in.
Now, this is an overly simplistic description, but it is a starting place.
well, there is a hell of a lot of good information in this post.
but i think the root question remaines unanswered. What determines the key.
Well when you write the song, you use notes. When notes are placed into scales (like a major scale) there are notes that are "happy" together and fit well. Thats where the 1-4-5 stuff comes in. This is music theory. There are all kind of chords, chord progressions, and all kind of different scales. Major, minor, pentatonic etc....
now, if you are playing your tune on the piano say, and all of the notes end up being on the white keys, you are probably playing in the key of "C".
Each key has a different number of sharp and flat notes. If every time you play and one note is #, that is refelected in the key signature. This is placed at the very front of the piece of music. The key of C has no flats or sharps. The key of G has one #, D has two.
So, the notes that you play, determine what key you are playing in.
Now, this is an overly simplistic description, but it is a starting place.
Purge
Traitorous Usurper
Exactly. It's got nothing to do with what the first note is. You did a way better job of communicating that than I did.