Just starting out - what mics to buy first?

adrianhouse

New member
Hello all,

I'm a beginner just in the mental stages of setting up a minimal studio at home (I think I'm buying a TEAC 3340 tape deck today - good idea?). I will be recording power pop (vocs, guitar, bass, drums), pretty basic. Think I can get by with two mics? Tight budget:)! In terms of vocals, what's the difference between the sound of a condenser and dynamic mic? I want to try to get a live-sounding recording, something like the Ramones' first album. Thanks in advance for your advice!

Adrian
 
A tape deck? Like a multi-channel tracking tape deck or just a tape deck?

Also, what is your actual budget for these mics? I'd go with a couple of decent dynamics. You might be able to get away with just two SM57's. Even better, you could get an SM57 and a couple of SDC's (Naiant MSH-1's, check 'em out) for the drum overheads.

SM57 used = $65ish
Naiant MSH-1 = $26 or so

Total = $117
 
The 3340

Hi,

The 3340 is a vintage piece of prosumer four-track open reel tape deck. Back in the seventies it was what everyone really wanted because it was the only consumer four track solution. This deck will definitely deliver that analog sound.

I believe it has 1/4 inch high impedance mic inputs and line inputs. A couple of DMP3 preamps would work good with this deck and allow you to use modern condensor mics with phantom power and low impedance cables. Or maybe one preamp and a couple of mics that will work with the deck.

Like the Shure 588 series of microphones. These high impedance precursors to the SM58 would work well with the 3340. The EV mics from that era are all selectable for low or high impedance. The Audio Technica MB4000c is a battery powered condensor mic that can talk to a high impedance input.

Alternatively there are low to high impedance adaptors but they are better used for a live situation. I would highly recommend the preamps over the adaptors. The preamps make the mics sound better. The adaptors make the mics sound worse.

If I remember right the deck will mix to stereo with the built in controls. You could then master to your computer and burn CDs. Or get a half track mastering deck and keep everything analog.

Hope this helps and I hope my memory hasn't played too many tricks on me.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry
 
Hi guys,
Thanks for the advice, and sorry it took me a while to reply (been talking to the Analog Only guys about decks). Didn't get the 3340 after, but might get another kind. I don't know much about anything, really, and I only just noticed the mic faq section (duh:rolleyes:). I tried to read about impedance once in a book and didn't get it, so maybe that faq will clear it up. I may have a few more questions though once I get whatever deck I'm getting. It might be a Tascam 414 cassette. Thanks,
Adrian
 
Yo Adrian! Here's the short and skinny. Since the early 70's almost all mics are low impedence. High impedence mics are a rarity today. Usually, but not always, low impedence mics use the 3-pin connector called XLR and high impedence mics use a 1/4" TS (tip-sleeve) connector, like a guitar cable. Cheap transformer-adaptors became necessary in the early 70's so that people could plug their low impedence mics into the high impedence inputs of their old PA's. Note that most condenser mics (except for a few that are battery powered) require "phantom power", usually nominally 48v, that is sent back up the the common ground third wire of an XLR mic cable to polarize the diaphragm, in other words, to power the mic. No phantom power, no workee.

Tube mics, a sub-group of condensers, require more power than phantom power supplies, so they generally come with a separate power box and a cable with lots of pins, like 7. So if you have an old deck with 4 high impedence inputs, you either need 4 high impedence mics (good luck with that), 4 low impedence dynamics with transformer/adaptors (which tend to be a little noisy) or 4 channels of preamps, which will convert the weak input of the mics into line level, which the old deck can understand (into a line in, not a mic input). Such preamps will also produce phantom power.

My advice would be- if you are a beginner, don't start out with quirky antique equipment that only old rockers and sound men understand. This is really hard, but the best thing you can do is save your money, and keep asking dumb questions on this board until the answers make sense. I did that for almost a year before I spent a bunch of money, and even then, there are things I would do differently, if I had it to do over.

In the end, you will be faced with 3 basic directions in which you can go. You are either going to use a computer, whether a desktop or laptop, you are going to use a standalone digital recorder, which run from hand held 4-track items to complex multitrackers costing thousands, or you are going to build an analog system, either cassette or open reel.

This is my short answer on the basic advantages and disadvantages of each system, so you can decide how you want to get wherever you want to be, and then I'll give you my best (short) advice:

Analog: Cassette systems can be had real cheap in 4 track-check Tascam on line. They often don't provide phantom power, so outboard preamps may be required to use condenser mics. Sound quality is limited by the width and speed of the tape. They are great learning tools, and good for sort-of-OK stereo or 4-track home recordings. It will probably end up in a computer anyway, so it can become a CD,DVD,MP3,WAV file, or whatever, that the average Joe can play on his system.
Pro-level open reel systems use wider tape going much faster, and produce much better sound, but are complex and delicate, and the sticker shock on the tape could knock over a rhino. This is an option for someone that is making a serious comittment to quality analog sound.

Computers- Rapidly becoming the home recording standard, these systems are expandable and affordable. There's a bit of a learning curve for someone who is not computer-savvy. Computers, especially desktops, tend to make a fair amount of noise, and isolating the computer from the mics can become a mission. Laptops often don't support the kind of high-end soundcards needed for quality recording, so an interface is often used, which provides preamps, phantom power, and a physical control surface. The signal is then sent to the computer by USB or firewire. Firewire is rapidly becoming the standard, as it can send more simultaneous signals than USB-based systems. Laptop based systems tend to be more expensive than desktop systems, and more portable. Computer based systems are the obvious winner in the bang-for-buck category.

Standalone systems- Also known as SIAB (studio in a box), this is really a specialized computer made for digital recording. The upside is that they are pretty much ready to go out of the box, provide preamps, phantom power, mixing capabilities, portability, and hopefully ways to export audio data to a desktop. Many have onboard CD burners. The downside- they are usually not expandable or upgradable. If the preamps suck, and they often do, working around that can be a pain. If part of it breaks, your whole system is down, not just a component.

OK- my advice- Start by feeding your immediate need without spending a ton of money. Start with either a palm-sized portable digital 4-track or a low cost cassette 4 track and one or 2 basic dynamic microphones. This will allow you to start recording almost immediately, start your learning curve, and give you the time to plan out what kind of system you are ultimately going to commit to. When you do make that decision, those basic dynamic mics will still have uses, and your portable recorder will become a recording artist's sketch pad/palmtop.

I like this one-

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=42095&Category=Recorder

It'll never become totally useless. Best of luck-Richie
 
I just like analog better than digital, more character in my opinion (but don't want to start a huge debate here).
Yes I'm a baboon but people still like me :o.
 
I just like analog better than digital, more character in my opinion (but don't want to start a huge debate here).
Yes I'm a baboon but people still like me :o.

You say that yet you also say you don't know what you are doing? You only like the IDEA of analog better. Believe me. It is like communism... perhaps great in its intention, but good flipping luck implementing it. In this day and age unless you have a ton of money to support a good 16 or 24 track tape deck... you are just painting yourself into a corner with analog. I have a TEAC sitting in the basement and it gets used once every thousand years to drop masters to... maybe. The flexibility of digital is so significantly superior to analog and the cost so incredibly much lower, as someone just starting out, I would highly recommend you reconsider. Want a compressor in analog? Be ready to pony up some bucks for a hardware unit. In digital... well, I can recommend at least 10 free downloads for you. Then once you get your land legs in this whole recording deal, then decide whether analog is worth the pain. My 2 cents.
 
Ramones.....

probably sm57 or even PG57's will work.

I agree with Bubba, it's obvious ANalog is more labor intensive to do it right technically, but there is a beauty to just hitting a red record button....

but in the end what are you going to do? hand out cassette tapes to everyone?

eventually your forced into the CD (digital) format, in most cases a computer is involved...or a standalone like the DP01, or a used 2488 for $400.

I'd think a used c4-track assette runs what? $100 these days?
 
Thanks for the replies, all. Richie, thanks a lot for your reply giving me the lowdown on impedance, using preamps etc. So, using a preamp, could one use a condenser mic on an old tape deck? I still don't uderstand what impedence is, but I'll save any questions about it 'till I've done some more reading. Thanks as well for the lowdown on the different systems - really helpful. I think I'm leaning twds getting a good quality cassette 4 track. I discussed the whole thing in quite a bit of detail with the Analog Only guys on this bbs, and that was what a lot of them said, with recommendations as to which one to get, though some said just go to open reel or digital.
Sm 57 seems to be the mic many have recommended, so I'll probably go for one of those. Thanks again,
Adrian
 
its hard to argue a SM57. that would be like saying a Stratocaster or Les Paul sucks...they've got to much credibility.

I was just reading some pro studio session, and a SM57 on the snare, some Beyer on the kick and some LDC placed back-a few feet from the kit and it worked for that session...

wait until you start reading on the SM7....and Seinnheiser 421...

maybe in 25 years, MXL $50 mics will be there too. Many say they use them and many posts show they can work fine.

but they don't have the heritage yet... and even though Shure has moved alot to Mexico for mfg. They've seemed to maintain the QC (in that there isn't a lot of faulty SM57 posts all of a sudden)...they haven't messed with the "recipe"....I mean Shure didn't start making the body out of gray plastic in stead of metal..

SM57....an $90 HR Hall of Fame tool!:D

you'll need some crank in the preamp though.
 
Unless you're willing to spend tons of time and money to maintain a high quality tape deck, analog just doesn't make sense anymore. You will be better served going the digital route.
 
Digital/analog

Thanks for the thoughts on what I should get, all. Before I spend a lot of money and get either system, I want to try both out, first, and see which I like. I think I can get a good, mint deck for cheap, so why not try that first. I'll probably try digital somehow too, and see if my prejudice is changed :). I just really like that old sound - don't like any music from the past 15 years. Later,
Adrian
 
the format has nothing to do with the music of course.

actually i thought cassette was great compared to the 8-track car decks...

but it was hell in other ways.

then CD, MD, and the rest....

why not buy a tape digital unit for $300? whats the Tascam DA38 or something...

or just buy a mixer and 2 cassette decks and do the overdubs LesPaul style?

I always thought reel to reels had a nice warm sound, compressed natural tone...er. not all of them....but many of the semi-pro TEAC did.

if your into that you may be better off with Reel to Reel, as far as sound goes.
 
Shure 'nuff

Hi,
I was reading a bit about the sm57, and someone said that it's just the 58 without the pop filter. Is that true? And that if you take the pop filter off the 58, it's a 57. Can you fit a pop filter onto the 57 for vocals? Or do you need to?
I think I'm going to be recording my guitar and vocals at the same time, too, so I guess I'll need two mics for that, as I want the sound of my amp. But is it possible/desirable to get that by plugging the amp into the recorder somehow? I don't want a "too clean" sound at all. Thanks again,
Adrian
 
why not buy a tape digital unit for $300? whats the Tascam DA38 or something...

Do not go the route of digital tape. Don't waste your money - I did - and I will come find you if you do too :mad::D

My suggestion would be an interface if you have a computer, and a standalone digital recorded if you don't. I had the analog bug myself before I knew what was going on, and I wish I had my money back :rolleyes:

If you are really deadset against using a computer, this guy is new (and as such, doesn't have any real userbase), but it is an inexpensive, standalone 8-track multitrack recorder that doesn't appear to be totally menu-driven (why I stayed away from em - pain in the ass to use).

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DP02CF/

It has mic preamps built-in, and line inputs in case you want to buy a decent stand-alone pre later on (such as an M-Audio DMP3, which is a fabulous pre in its price range, ~150 bucks). If you are recording electric guitars, the SM57 probably isn't a bad call for cabs, and two Naiant MSH-1's will do for overheads for drums (at 45 bucks a pair, they are way more than a steal for recording drums and acoustic instruments alike).

I understand the idea of recording to tape - you string up the deck, hit the record button, and go (which will take some time itself), but it is still a quick procedure, by comparison to software, which takes more time to get the feel for... but in the end, you will end up learning a lot more (since you have access to free plugins such as reverb, compression, etc), and you will produce better recordings (most likely, anyway). Plus, you won't figure this out after having spent at least a couple hundred bucks on stuff that won't integrate later on.

Just my two cents... well, by the looks of the post length, it was $1.47, but still :p
 
Wow! Going cassette. That will be short lived. Where I live they don't even sell the cassettes for these machines. You use a normal bias cassettes and you will be replacing heads every couple of years. Not to mention that their are less and less companies making these things. Within 10 years you will have to buy used cassettes on e-bay.:(
 
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