Just some help please.

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Dogman

Dogman

Unkle Ticklefingers
I'm new here, and have read some forum advice from people, and tried many things, but can't seem to get the results I'd like myself. If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.

I'm having trouble getting a good "full" vocal sound. I use a Shure Sm58 mic, into a Digitec Vr300 vocal pedal, then into a Boss Br-532 recorder. I end up with a flat sounding vocal, no matter what effect I use, and no matter where the mixing knobs are positioned. I have recorded without the pedal, just using the effects in the recorder, and no effects at all. I know I'm bot that great, but the sound is thin. If I crank things up, lots of delay, compressor, and run the input very high, then sing or talk softly, it is fuller, but clips even under normal speach. I have mixed it on my computer, using Audition, and get some better tone, but not great.

Do I need to adjust more settings, like input gain and master on my vocal pedal, and the recorder, or is something in the recorder limiting the quality? I know my voice lacks, but the mic amped through a cheap bass amp has a fuller sound than I can record.

Any help is appreciated.
 
What you need to do is double track the vocal: sing it twice. That's about the only way you are going to make it fuller. All the other tricks and fancy gadgets I've used in the past didn't cut it. Sing it twice. Then compress it when you mix down.
 
One more thing: Get a good mic pre amp and get rid of that digitech pedal. It's only for playing around with, and not very good for recording, IMHO. I've heard them used live, and they are a bit noisy anyway. You don't want that on your recordings. A good mic pre amp will be much better. There are dozens of them out there. Here is a place to START looking. Realize they are not the only resource....
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/search?c=4639
I hope this helps.
 
Thanks fro the help. I'll give it a try and see what happens.
 
dogman. get a yamaha mg mixer. to replace the pedal.
then as rokket said record the track twice. and heres a trick.
now duplicate on a seperate track the second vocal and shift it forward in time by a few milliseconds.
at the risk ofrepeating myself again...powertracks that i use to track with
in the new version 9 has some very interesting effects for vocallists
including vocal harmonisation. try the demo sometime.
particularly try a touch of the echo/chorus on vocals. peace.
 
Thanks, manning. I'll look into the powertracks.
 
dogman. when you download the demo. in audio preferences make sure you identify , like any package the audio drivers of the sound card to use.
also - really really delve into some of the vocal fx presets and tweaks.
also ask for any tips on the user forum at pg. lots of helpful folks.
also notice the built in drum machine for doing drum tracks. quick.
peace.
 
Consider looking into a good condenser mic too. The Shure SM-58 is a brilliant microphone for live use, but I have never managed to get a "Full" sound when recording with them. There are plenty of nice condensor microphones out there for reasonable money (i.e. Rodes NT-1).
 
Atterion said:
Consider looking into a good condenser mic too. The Shure SM-58 is a brilliant microphone for live use, but I have never managed to get a "Full" sound when recording with them. There are plenty of nice condensor microphones out there for reasonable money (i.e. Rodes NT-1).
Click to expand...
Just remember that condensor mics will need phantom power, so you will need to look into a good mixer (yamaha mg's are great) to power it.
 
I actually like the sound of a 58 on certain vocalists.

My question to you, Dogman, is what style of music are you doing? What albums do you like in reference to vocal fullness?

Factors other than genre come in to play as well (in no particular order):
Performance technique
Mic
Relationship between vocal and other instruments (in the mix/above the mix)
Effects to dry ratio (do you like 'verb or delay on vocals?)
Recording techniques

If I can get a bit of a genre reference from you I could suggest a few tips because I haven't run across the "be-all-end-all" mic/approach that spans all genre's. From my experience everybody's idea of fullness is vastly different.

--Adam Lazlo
 
First off, thanks all for replying.

To analogelectric: I like rock, from early stuff through today. Paul Rogers from Bad Company, off of the album Bad Company has a great sound, and also Sully Erna from Godsmack. I probably sound more like a bad Neil Young than anyone else, but will be happy with my own voice, if I could get it recorded properly.
I am probably mixing it in all wrong, but even by itself, I can't get a sound I like.

So far I have tried numerous mic positions, from close to far away. If I sing from an inch or less, it is more full, but clips really easily, and I have been doing some music that requires me to be more forcefull.

I am not expecting perfection, but I have heard what other people have done on a 4 track, and they seem to get a fuller sound, and it is in the mix better. If you have any suggestions on mic placement, and how I should start to set up my volume knobs, this would be great. I have ran the mic directly to the recorder, which has some bhilt in effects, and turned them down/off, and tried to record pretty dry, and that sounds real tinny. I run through my pedal, and add just a bit of compression, no gain, or very little, and some reverb or delay. Sometimes sounds better, sometimes worse.

Something on the vien of Paige Hamilton of Helmet would be the best, as his voice isn't always smooth, and he sometimes sings, and other times almost screams. This fits what I am trying to do.
Thanks.
 
Ccccheck these out dude

:) Sounds like you possibly have a thin voice like me. I couldnt get a 58 to sound good on recording either. I have a high mid presence in my voice that makes it sound shrill and edgy. Some kind responders in this forum suggested a Sure sm-7B mic it will give you a richer,warmer ,fuller sound. I also tried the EV-RE15. It sounds way better than the 58. The sm-7 is around $350. If you want a cheaper fix try a 57 instead of the 58. Also a good pre-amp of course and if you have the $ a good tube mic. They suggest a T-3 or a 4060, :eek: I bought a 4060 but it hasn't arrived yet so I can't tell you how it sounds but keep in touch, Ill let you know!
 
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I used to record for AmRep so I'm used to the Helmet reference.

Most Helmet vocals are dual tracked; two seperate tracks of the same vocal inflection and almost mixed to sound like one vocal.

If you can punch-in your dynamic vocal changes, adjusting gain as needed, you'd be better off and have better control. Considering it's a 4-track bouncing tracks to make space while keeping perspective is hard.

You could also try having the dry vocal dead center, adding two mono doublers with slightly different parameters, and hard pan them left and right (respecively).

With EQ cut out all the lows from 50Hz, boost a bit between 100Hz-125Hz, and cut a little around 800Hz-900Hz. Then insert a compressor staring at a 4:1 ratio (maybe even 10:1 or larger) with a moderate attack and slow release. If you want more "air" then use a slow attack and a moderate to fast release.

I tend to push the EQ on a vocal (pre-compressor insert) especially in the low mids. It really depends where the rest of the mix is sitting. If the guitars occupy frequencies around 100Hz and 4kHz-5kHz (respectively) then I'll bring up around 250Hz on the vocal or maybe a little 1kHz-2kHz.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a relationship to everything. Vocals tend to pop out when no other instrument is occupying certain frequencies. Keep messing around with it and try not to listen to each instrument (including vocals) by themselves while mixing.

Most issues I've had with vocal placement within a mix mostly had to do with off-balancing frequency placement for each instrument; I'm being redundant but I'm trying to drill it in.

Don't be afraid to play around with compression. 99% of the vocals you hear on major label (and not so major) compress/limit the heck out of vocals (and everything else for that matter--individually, again during Mastering, and then again on the radio).

Hopefully that gives you a little more to chew on. As far as 'clipping' goes; if you're having to do one full take all the way through without punch-ins, set your gain for the maximum volume you sing at without distorting the mic (be about 3 to 6 inches from the mic). When you're more subtle within the same song come a little closer to mic... it's called 'working the mic'. I've had to teach a fair amount of my recording clients on how to do that. You see that all the time with live performances especially people like Celine Dion and Christina Aguilera, when they belt out the power parts they hold the mic further away. Also, especially live, the vocal is compressed quite a lot anyways.

All right, now I'm rambling...

--Adam Lazlo
 
Thanks dude, most insightful. This gives me a lot to toy with. Hopefully I can get the time to try some of it out tomorrow. I haven't tried much with the EQ, but now have somewhere to start from.
Most appreciated.
Also, I do all my mixing on the computer, so I don't bounce the tracks. Should I mix it on the recorder, or is the PC the way to go?
Ed
 
Dogman said:
Thanks dude, most insightful. This gives me a lot to toy with. Hopefully I can get the time to try some of it out tomorrow. I haven't tried much with the EQ, but now have somewhere to start from.
Most appreciated.
Also, I do all my mixing on the computer, so I don't bounce the tracks. Should I mix it on the recorder, or is the PC the way to go?
Ed
Click to expand...

I didn't know if you were restricted to a 4-track or if you mix in the computer so now I know. Yeah do it up! You can have lots of layered tracks to work with. With that in mind...

If you try splitting vocals on seperate tracks EQ and compress the crap out of the left/right while mildly compressing a center (dry) vocal. If the drastic hard pan doubler sounds too big start moving them closer to the center (be aware of possible phase cancellation, as always).

Example: if your guitars are hardpanned l/r you might want the vocal tracks to be at 10 and 2 or whatever. So many different ways to approach it and play around with panning and EQ'ing/compressing different vocal layers. Let us know how it goes :)

--Adam Lazlo
 
Thanks again. It all sounds like it should work better than what I have gotten so far. One more thing, should I be recording things to one track at a time, or do two? And should I not mix down the whole rythum, and then try to put vocals over the top of it? What I mean is, put everything in the PC program on its individual track, then mix it all at once?
Thanks again.
Ed
 
Dogman said:
Thanks again. It all sounds like it should work better than what I have gotten so far. One more thing, should I be recording things to one track at a time, or do two? And should I not mix down the whole rythum, and then try to put vocals over the top of it? What I mean is, put everything in the PC program on its individual track, then mix it all at once?
Thanks again.
Ed
Click to expand...

You can record whatever you want at one time or do assembly line... doesn't really matter. The only thing about assembly line is it's hard to keep perspective for the end result.

If you meant vocals one track at a time then yes (if you're thinking of trying natural doubling).

I'm guessing this:
You're tracking everything yourself instrument by instrument? Each instrument should have its own track. If you're using a drum machine then left/right (2 tracks) should be fine. Then track either the guitars next or bass, which-ever you're most comfortable with. Then (what I like to do) is faux (slop) mix the rhythm tracks then do the vocals.

I'd suggest NOT mixing down the rhythm band tracks to a stereo group before doing the vocals. Vocals are hard to place on top of a completed track (then you're just doing kareoke). If you can, keep all tracks seperate and then mix everything at once once the vocals are done as well. Having control during a mix with other instruments to help the vocals fit in really helps a lot.

Pretty much all the clients I've worked with I've done vocals last before a mix (with the exception of a few percussive overdubs and/or guitar overdubs, etc).

When I mix I rarely listen to individual tracks. I monitor everything at once and adjust pan, volume, EQ, and so on as the tracks are being played.

During the mix is where you can start grouping, summing, sub-mixing, etc.

In my early days of recording I picked up "The Musicians Guilde To Home Recording" and it really helped me out a lot (back before the almighty Internet. Even still it's nice to have a hardcopy of tangible information. At that time it kinda went over my head but I must've read that book every night for a good couple years. After that Message Boards like this one became an interactive resource for specific tricks.

Right now, for you, it's time to unlock the full potential of your set-up. If your PC program came with some tutorials then check them out, try them.

I was a die-hard analog guy until I bought a computer based format earlier this year. I was a little lost and did things that I could figure out on the fly. I got stuck in a routine until I realized I might be missing its full potential. I dove headlong in to the manuals, picked the brains of my fellow engineers, and ran all the tutorials.

I don't want to tell you anything you already know... I'm just talking off the top of my head (generally most engineers are neurotic--or would you call that passionate?)

I would guess from what I've read so far in your posts is you need to get past a 4-track mind. If your PC is able to handle a good amount of tracks (8 or more) without obnoxious lag or crashing then it's time to move forward in to that realm. Unlock the computer's potential and your potential.

You're at a very exciting time right now. You're at the cusp of discovering amazing revelations and from then on it's fine tuning rooted from the basics.

--Adam Lazlo
 
Thanks, man. Some of this is atarting to make sense, and now I see why some of the results were not good. I was mixing the whole rythum down, all center, and just putting vocals on top, and trying to mix the volume equal. I have started over with some stuff, and layered it somewhat like you said, and did some panning, and that helped a bit. Now I just need to work on setting up the mic, and adjusting the settings to get a better vocal sound, then I can try and remix with all seperate tracks. Hopefully this will sound much "fuller".
I had been recording everything in stereo, 2 tracks at once for each part. I think now I will try just one track per part, and try multiple takes. I tried to sing the vocals twice, then put that together in one track, but I was off far enough that it sounded like two totally different people doing a bad duet.

Thanks again, and I'll keep trying.
Ed
 
I agree with Skunk about trying a SM 57. Paul Rodgers uses one. With reverb they have awesome clarity.

Good Luck
 
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