Jazz guitar help

[Henry Mars]

One more reference / practice book that I find helpful (more so in the realm of practice) is the David Baker series on modern jazz. In response to the previos poster about the Roberts series I do agree they are good reference but a bit difficult to wade through. Lots of cool tips on this thread so far. Thanks all. Light a Berkleeite? I hated jazz for years afterwards too. Just now getting back in the "groove" so to speak.

I will also endorse the David Baker books. I have them in my library and I also have the Howard Roberts books. In fact I have a ton of all kinds of music related books which were used as teaching references. Each one of them has something to offer.

Some other really good ones are Volume(s) I, II, and III of the Jamey Abersold series. "How to Play Jazz", "Nothin' But the Blues" and "The II-V7-I Progression"

 

[Thurgood]

Hey, I was going to reccomend the (damnit I can't spell) must be the heat and the giant pimple growing on my old forehead. Props to the above, the David VBaker stuff is cool. Let me write, "THe Jamey stuff will kick it into gear" Gimme sec to find one of the many I posess. Well i miswrote, they, meaning, the books and cds are not as nearby as I thought. Nonetheless, def go to website and browse the catalog. Last Thursday my ex and I were going through the volumes of music we ahve collected, both written and recorded. W are talking some stuff to sort. ( she is the local music editor and fine musician as well) we ran across the JA stuf and on a 20 yr old volume were the listings for 39 publications. Checked thjeh site and OMG it is huge. So in short alfter long go there.

 

[eyema_believer]

Ii-v-i Ii-v-i Ii-v-i Ii-v-i

OK..... I've been working on my II-V-I.
So... let's say we're in the key of "C."
I'll be playing along.... Dm7-G7-CM7 .... and then to turn it around, here comes an A7.

hmmmm

Well.... if a guy was soloing over that progression, and here comes that A7, what scales can you use over that A7 chord?



~Shawn

 

[Henry Mars]

OK..... I've been working on my II-V-I.
So... let's say we're in the key of "C."
I'll be playing along.... Dm7-G7-CM7 .... and then to turn it around, here comes an A7.

hmmmm

Well.... if a guy was soloing over that progression, and here comes that A7, what scales can you use over that A7 chord?



~Shawn

So now you are playing in a tonal center around a D major scale ( it could be something else too but we will keep it simple. You could subtitute Em7 - A7 (ii - V in the key of D) or you could give it a more blues sound by using an Am scale starting on the sixth step of the Cmajor scale.

 

[famous beagle]

OK..... I've been working on my II-V-I.
So... let's say we're in the key of "C."
I'll be playing along.... Dm7-G7-CM7 .... and then to turn it around, here comes an A7.

hmmmm

Well.... if a guy was soloing over that progression, and here comes that A7, what scales can you use over that A7 chord?



~Shawn

There are a lot of different options. Henry Mars mentioned treating it as a D major scale center. I don't really agree with this, as you're going to be resolving the A7 to Dm, and not D major.

D harmonic minor would be one choice that would work nicely: D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C#

Or, if the A7 is altered (like A7#9, A7b9, A7b5, etc.), then the A altered scale would cover that: A-Bb-C-C#- D#-F-G.

Or, as Henry hinted at, the A blues scale would give you a bluesy sound: A-C-D-Eb-E-G. This scale doesn't really outline the A7 chord, as it doesn't contain the C# note, but, since the C tonality is so strong, it can still work... especially at faster tempos.

 

[Henry Mars]

There are a lot of different options. Henry Mars mentioned treating it as a D major scale center. I don't really agree with this, as you're going to be resolving the A7 to Dm, and not D major.

D harmonic minor would be one choice that would work nicely: D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C#

Or, if the A7 is altered (like A7#9, A7b9, A7b5, etc.), then the A altered scale would cover that: A-Bb-C-C#- D#-F-G.

Or, as Henry hinted at, the A blues scale would give you a bluesy sound: A-C-D-Eb-E-G. This scale doesn't really outline the A7 chord, as it doesn't contain the C# note, but, since the C tonality is so strong, it can still work... especially at faster tempos.

You know what this all comes down to is sound. I have played all kinds of scales with all kinds of chord progressions and it still comes down to tension and release .... in other words you are really never more than half a step away from a note that will sound good. One night,years ago, I was at a workshop with Pat Martino . He showed us how he could play in Db over CM7 and make it work and damned if he didn't. That was the real eye opener for me. Scales are just organized strings of notes not the key to improvisational bliss. Fact is you assume the A7 is going to resolve to Dm what if it dosen't? ... and even if it does that still gives you a lot of choices as to how you can make it work. The Am provides tension and release if used properly. Here is another "cute" one. Play an E melodic (jazz) minor over the A7 and the D harmonic minor over Dm - G7 resolve to CMaj. You probably shouldn't over use it but the E melodic minor adds a little color. Sometimes you got to move a little out of the box and pull it back in. It doesn't seem like it will work on first glance but it does. There are a ton of ways to "misuse scales" that can add some flavor to your playing. You will hear the cats in the crowd saying, "what did that cat just play"?
Another rule for the improvising novice .. If you make what you think is a mistake .... get a really hip grin and play it again ... a lot of cats are going to shake their heads and think you are some kind of genius.

 

[Light]

OK..... I've been working on my II-V-I.
So... let's say we're in the key of "C."
I'll be playing along.... Dm7-G7-CM7 .... and then to turn it around, here comes an A7.

hmmmm

Well.... if a guy was soloing over that progression, and here comes that A7, what scales can you use over that A7 chord?



~Shawn

One of the nice things about dominants is that, other than the major seventh, you can really play any note and make it work. This doesn't mean you can just play randomly - but you DO have a lot of choices. Well, you can, but that's not the way to get to where you want to be.

For instance, any pentatonic scale which doesn't have a major seventh can be used. For an A7, go up a major second to a B minor pentatonic. Over a minor chord, this will give you a very dorian sound, but over a dominant chord it is a fairly straight forward dominant sound. If you go down a major second, a G minor pentatonic scale, it gives you both a flat and sharp 9, so it's obviously an altered dominant sound. The licks you already have in these scales will have a very different sound (some of them usable, some useless - but that's why you try them all). If you go up a minor third, you get both the altered ninths, as well as a #11th, and a flat 6th.

Obviously, these are just a few possibilities, and you want to experiment with other things too, but they do work and really do help to get you out of the kinds of ruts EVERYONE gets into at some point. Of course, these things can become ruts just as easily.

Dominants are one of those areas where the whole concept of playing just the third and seventh are extremely useful. If the guy soloing decides he wants to alter a dominant chord which isn't written that way, you are giving him that opportunity.

You can also use whole tone and diminished scales effectively over dominants - again being careful to use the version which doesn't have the major seventh (or just don't use that part of the scale). Obviously, these are more "outside" choices, but that doesn't make them bad - just different, and I for one like different.

And of course, the same idea I was talking about with pentatonic (well, I mean, a pentatonic scale is just a minor chord with a fourth added) scales works just as well with arpeggios. A diminished arpeggio from the flat second of a half-dominant (minor7 flat5) chord gives you the flat 9, the third, fifth, and the seventh of the chord. Use that to lead into a line starting from the chords root (if the chord lasts that long), or from the resolving Dm's fifth, and you've got a nice bit of flow. Experiment with other arpeggios too. This is a DEEP bit of exploration.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Henry Mars]

One of the nice things about dominants is that, other than the major seventh, you can really play any note and make it work. This doesn't mean you can just play randomly - but you DO have a lot of choices. Well, you can, but that's not the way to get to where you want to be.

For instance, any pentatonic scale which doesn't have a major seventh can be used. For an A7, go up a major second to a B minor pentatonic. Over a minor chord, this will give you a very dorian sound, but over a dominant chord it is a fairly straight forward dominant sound. If you go down a major second, a G minor pentatonic scale, it gives you both a flat and sharp 9, so it's obviously an altered dominant sound. The licks you already have in these scales will have a very different sound (some of them usable, some useless - but that's why you try them all). If you go up a minor third, you get both the altered ninths, as well as a #11th, and a flat 6th.

Obviously, these are just a few possibilities, and you want to experiment with other things too, but they do work and really do help to get you out of the kinds of ruts EVERYONE gets into at some point. Of course, these things can become ruts just as easily.

Dominants are one of those areas where the whole concept of playing just the third and seventh are extremely useful. If the guy soloing decides he wants to alter a dominant chord which isn't written that way, you are giving him that opportunity.

You can also use whole tone and diminished scales effectively over dominants - again being careful to use the version which doesn't have the major seventh (or just don't use that part of the scale). Obviously, these are more "outside" choices, but that doesn't make them bad - just different, and I for one like different.

And of course, the same idea I was talking about with pentatonic (well, I mean, a pentatonic scale is just a minor chord with a fourth added) scales works just as well with arpeggios. A diminished arpeggio from the flat second of a half-dominant (minor7 flat5) chord gives you the flat 9, the third, fifth, and the seventh of the chord. Use that to lead into a line starting from the chords root (if the chord lasts that long), or from the resolving Dm's fifth, and you've got a nice bit of flow. Experiment with other arpeggios too. This is a DEEP bit of exploration.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

You can go on forever with this stuff. The real use of these scales is ear training. They more or less allow the ear to reconsider what it actually wants to hear. God I love this crap.

 

[Thurgood]

Funny, the comment about recovery from a "bad" phrase or note; you may cause some head scratching and the "wow, he is a genius!. That is funny. but in truth as one old jazzer toldd me, you are always only 1/2 step away from something that is gonna work, just don't hang on the "wrong" note.

 

[Henry Mars]

Funny, the comment about recovery from a "bad" phrase or note; you may cause some head scratching and the "wow, he is a genius!. That is funny. but in truth as one old jazzer toldd me, you are always only 1/2 step away from something that is gonna work, just don't hang on the "wrong" note.

... and I have some proof. The leading tone major scale C, D#,E, F#,G, B,C. Play it over a CMaj etc. I almost forgot about it.

 

[Thurgood]

Hello all":

Did a little practice My notes. Davis Baker, not bad. Learning guide tones very helpful. 2-5-1 helpful also. Pick out chord changes and learn the 3rd, 7th and root. Look for the upcoming changes. Plan ahead. Best all. W.

 

[famous beagle]

One of the nice things about dominants is that, other than the major seventh, you can really play any note and make it work. This doesn't mean you can just play randomly - but you DO have a lot of choices. Well, you can, but that's not the way to get to where you want to be.

For instance, any pentatonic scale which doesn't have a major seventh can be used. For an A7, go up a major second to a B minor pentatonic. Over a minor chord, this will give you a very dorian sound, but over a dominant chord it is a fairly straight forward dominant sound. If you go down a major second, a G minor pentatonic scale, it gives you both a flat and sharp 9, so it's obviously an altered dominant sound. The licks you already have in these scales will have a very different sound (some of them usable, some useless - but that's why you try them all). If you go up a minor third, you get both the altered ninths, as well as a #11th, and a flat 6th.

Obviously, these are just a few possibilities, and you want to experiment with other things too, but they do work and really do help to get you out of the kinds of ruts EVERYONE gets into at some point. Of course, these things can become ruts just as easily.

Dominants are one of those areas where the whole concept of playing just the third and seventh are extremely useful. If the guy soloing decides he wants to alter a dominant chord which isn't written that way, you are giving him that opportunity.

You can also use whole tone and diminished scales effectively over dominants - again being careful to use the version which doesn't have the major seventh (or just don't use that part of the scale). Obviously, these are more "outside" choices, but that doesn't make them bad - just different, and I for one like different.

And of course, the same idea I was talking about with pentatonic (well, I mean, a pentatonic scale is just a minor chord with a fourth added) scales works just as well with arpeggios. A diminished arpeggio from the flat second of a half-dominant (minor7 flat5) chord gives you the flat 9, the third, fifth, and the seventh of the chord. Use that to lead into a line starting from the chords root (if the chord lasts that long), or from the resolving Dm's fifth, and you've got a nice bit of flow. Experiment with other arpeggios too. This is a DEEP bit of exploration.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

And of course, the major 7th is used all the time over dominant chords as a passing note too, as in the Bebop scale.

There's really no note that you can't play. There are only notes that sound kinda awkward when resolved to.

If you (eyema_believe) want to get started in soloing over ii-V progressions, I highly recommend the lesson "Beginning ii-V-I Licks" at www.guitarinstructor.com. It'll get you playing some licks right away using both scales and arpeggios.