It's ain't the Pre...It's the Mic !

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I had a friend who was an assistant (read: coffee boy, cable tester) to Lanois on several recordings (including Joshua Tree) who passed along the u47 info...interestingly Eno and Lanois use alot of ldc's in a large one room band setting..Lanois talked about how he loved bleed and the live nature of the sound (See Emmy Lou Harris' "Wrecking Ball")..Bono definately uses a 58 live...I think part of this urban studio legend came from an interview in the 80's when Bono said something to the effect.."They use all these big mic's, fancy rooms and and old fashioned gear on my vocals and after all, in the end i sound the same as I do live"....Nothing against 57/58's..I use them all the time on anything they sound good on..I don't like misinformation....

Ray
 
mark4man said:
(&...on your previous post...someone told me never to use a pad...dulls the sound...so now I'm paranoid over that.)
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Glad you like your KSM27 . . . anyway, a pad is a few resistors. Unless they are crap resistors, it should have no effect on the quality of the sound. Lots of resistors in a preamp . . . the gain control on a pre is a resistor. The pad switch on the 27 also involves resistors :) I wouldn't fear using a pad made by a reputable company--if clipping was indeed the problem, which it apparently wasn't.
 
It's funny...

I'm singing essentially the same vocal passage at the same level into different mics at the store...thru a Digi 002 board & recording each mic's signal in Pro Tools; & then we listen to all the tracks back & compared signals. At the same phrase, w/ every mic...it broke up...even with the TLM 103. The salesdude described the sound as "vibrato distortion." I said: "wha?" He says: "yeah...that scratchy sound around 8, 10k...it's your rasp". I said: "wha?" He says: "Dude...I think I heard it while you were singing...you think it's the mic or the pre???...dude, it's your voice, man".

I said: "I'm not hearing it in my head while I'm singing...all I'm hearing is the purity of the note".

He says: "That's nice 'n' all...but I don't think it's the equipment".

So...this morning...I belt out the same passage in my bathroom...tons of ambience & multitudinal reflections & echoes in there, man. I hear no rasp...none.

So here's what I'm going to do. At the risk of humiliation...I'm going to record this problem (distorted) passage with at least two different mics; & upload it to my test server for you guys to give a listen to. I still think it's the gear...but maybe with all the vast experience around here someone can say: "hey...I know what that sound is...it's _ _ _ _ _ _ !"

Thanks,

mark4man
 
rsolinski said:
ixnay on the Robert Plant /sm57 urban studio legend (this must be a new twist the Bono/Tom Petty 57 legend..actual: Bono, U47...Petty, c12-1073-1176)...live ...yes...studio..no way! Tons of Zep studio footage around and alot of nice ldc's in front of him..I think Paul Rodgers of Bad Company/Free used a 57 on vox in the studio and by gawd those recordings sound like it...

Ray
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I have to agree in the studio the 57's belong somewhere else mybe drums. The OnlY stage mic though
 
mark4man said:
It's funny...

I'm singing essentially the same vocal passage at the same level into different mics at the store...thru a Digi 002 board & recording each mic's signal in Pro Tools; & then we listen to all the tracks back & compared signals. At the same phrase, w/ every mic...it broke up...even with the TLM 103. The salesdude described the sound as "vibrato distortion." I said: "wha?" He says: "yeah...that scratchy sound around 8, 10k...it's your rasp". I said: "wha?" He says: "Dude...I think I heard it while you were singing...you think it's the mic or the pre???...dude, it's your voice, man".

I said: "I'm not hearing it in my head while I'm singing...all I'm hearing is the purity of the note".

He says: "That's nice 'n' all...but I don't think it's the equipment".

So...this morning...I belt out the same passage in my bathroom...tons of ambience & multitudinal reflections & echoes in there, man. I hear no rasp...none.

So here's what I'm going to do. At the risk of humiliation...I'm going to record this problem (distorted) passage with at least two different mics; & upload it to my test server for you guys to give a listen to. I still think it's the gear...but maybe with all the vast experience around here someone can say: "hey...I know what that sound is...it's _ _ _ _ _ _ !"

Thanks,

mark4man
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I'm inclined to believe that you might be experiencing interference of some sort. Check all cables, connections and signal paths.

Regards.
 
Ok, let's see if I've got this straight. You started out with a buzz in your 4050 that happened with a couple of different good preamps, then you heard the same thing with a TLM-103 and another mic through a digi 002 at the store. I assume there was nothing common to these signal paths, other than your voice. So, the common denominator then would be your voice. What's your proximity to the mic during this test? It can't be SPL causing the mic to distort, but it could be air hitting the diaphram (use a pop filter and back up ). Also, if it's always in the same spot in the vocal, presumably a note that you belt out, it could simply be that you're overdriving the pre momentarily in both cases.

-RD
 
RD...

Overdriving even the pre's in the Digi 002 at the audio shop (to the same degree)? I don't know.

What I am going to do is roll back the Trim on the Grace & try again. The User Guide states to leave it at full out (& adjust via Gain) except in the most extreme cases, but I'll try it. You make a viable point; & could be right.

Thanks,

mark4man


BTW - I'm not nuts & I'm not imagining it & I'm not being hypercritical...but it is driving me up the wall 'cause I'm way over my timetable on the CD & the other band members are chafing at the bit & what not.
 
mark4man said:
RD...

Overdriving even the pre's in the Digi 002 at the audio shop (to the same degree)? I don't know.
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Any preamp can be overdriven, whether it costs $80 or $8000.
So here's the deal. On any mic pre (that I've ever used) you have a gain control. This control needs to be set so that the amplifier is operating in the linear portion of it's transfer function, or gain curve. Because different sources present widely varying input levels to the preamp, it's up to you to adjust the gain so that it's appropriate for the input signal. That's why all preamps also have either a meter, an LED ladder, or at the very least, a peak indicator. In all cases, the goal is to adjust the gain so that the LOUDEST sound out of the source (your mouth in this case), doesn't cause the meter, or the LED ladder, or the Peak indicator, to go into the red. You generally want to turn that gain knob up till it does go into the red on the loudest part, and then back it off just till it doesn't. If you adjust it correctly for most of your vocal, and then you hit that one note that you belt out louder than the rest, that part will clip. This is likely what's happening.
Now, the clipping can occure in the gain stage of the preamp, or it can occure in the A/D converters of the soundcard or audio interface, or standalone converters. That's why most preamps have an output level control also. You really need to monitor the signal both at the preamp, and coming into the converters to know that everything is happy.

-RD
 
errrr....Actually, Bono does always record with an sm 58 (or sometimes sm 57) in the studio, and many interviews prove it. Lately he uses the sm58 beta.

Lanois mentioned it here

http://www.amnesta.net/edge_delay/lanois.html

There are similar articles from the producers of POP (Flood and Howie B), and Lanois reiterated the use of the sm 58 in All that you can't leave behind.

sometimes a 100$ mic is all you need

Santiago

PS: Of course they then run that sm 58 into pretty top-of the line pre-amps, neve mixing desks, etc...
 
Bono uses a mix

Let me put in my $.02 on the SM57/58 debate...

I read the Lanois interview, and you have to take what he is saying with a grain of salt. U2 has recorded so many songs over their career - the question is, for the classic, huge hit songs, what mics were used?

Take a look at the U2 Go Home Slane Castle DVD. It has an extra on it, which is the making of "The Unforgettable Fire". Check out the part where Bono is doing the real vocals in the studio. That is one macking LDC mic. Has to be a Neumann or Telefunken.

The classic vocals tracks on Joshua Tree, those are definitely LDCs.

So, yeah, Bono may have used an SM58 in the control room for doing "Elevation", but for that song, it's fine.

Also, the thing about Robert Plant using an SM57/58 in the studio is again, true for some cases, but mostly not true. I have read several interviews with Page where he emphatically states that most of Page's vocals were recorded through a Neumann U67. However, especially on the 1st record, a lot of the vocals were done through handheld dynamic mics (while Plant was busy making up lyrics while the tape was rolling).

The SM57 and SM58 are beautiful and mighty inventions, but let's not get too carried away with them. They can be great vocal mics on songs where the singer is really belting it out rock style (Buckcherry, Soundgarden, etc). But they are not going to give that LDC sound.

These producers and artists aren't under oath when they do interviews, so they aren't under obligation to list all of the cases and exceptions when they make a blanket statement.

By the way, Lanois is one awesome guitar player live, especially for lead guitar...
 
wow well spotted about the Slane DVD! I have it myself and I had not noticed. This flies against all the interviews I have read (at most they say "we have tried everything but always go back to the sm 58"- and everybody says he sings live in the control room). But it does look as that is the final vocal session for Pride, so I think you are right

Still it does seem reasonable that Bono has used sure sm 58s in the studio more often than no. I've done a quick internet search, but I think there is more out there (Zooropa pictures with him sitting on a couch). However, I have to say instances of him not using an sm 58 would also be interesting, I'll look again at the "making of the unforgettable fire". This is what I found:

Flood on recording POP

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997_articles/jul97/flood_u2.html

Robbie Adams on recording Achtung Baby and Zooropa

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994_articles/mar94/u2robbieadams.html

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HEO/is_6_29/ai_n13789680 (though this one applies to the last tour)

Recording single versions of POP songs in the middle of Pop Mart <http://www.signaturesound.com/html/u2atsignaturesound.html>
Brian Eno on recording Bono's voice
<http://music.hyperreal.org/artists/brian_eno/interviews/garageb.htm>
On recording using a sh 57 (sm 57, rather?) on bono's voice in the War era
<http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~flare/u2info7.html>

Lanois on recording Bono using a sm 58 again <http://www.neuhouse.com/acadie/interview_2004.htm>

Picture Recording Achtung Baby at Dog Town studios with Lanois (a rented house where they recorded the bulk of AB)
<http://www.u2exit.com/pix/band/band_71>
Pictures Recording ATYCLB at Hannover Quay Studios (at the bottom there's 2 or 3 where Bono certainly seems to be recording in the control room with a handheld mike)
<http://www.macphisto.net/theband/webcam/archiv.html>

I think Lanois says it best in his 2004 interview. Stage mics are a good solution to recording vocals for Bono as he likes to record in the control room listening to the monitors. It's not the most hi-fi solution, but it promotes the kind of atmosphere and performance Bono likes. So lo-fi solutions might be the most practical sometimes.

Of course if people are going to think "bono uses an sm58, it must sound a lot better than a Neumann large capsule condenser" they'd be wrong!!

Cheers,

Santiago
 
awesome

Wow, Santiago, you are tha bomb! That is quite a collection of links...always good to have more U2/Lanois knowledge. :D
 
You're welcome!

I am a bit of a fan, and I love those "in the studio" articles

BTW I have to say I always thought With or without you sounds a lot more like an LDC than a small capsule sm 58, so there is probably something in what you say about parts of the Joshua Tree being recorded on an LDC. Do tell me if you find any studio pics of that time!

Santiago
 
All his vocals were recorded with a Shure SM58, as usual, and then went through a Neve mic preamp, and had a little bit of valve compression added from an LA2 or a Summit.
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Well I'll be damn !

SM58 thru world-class xformers, eh? I want some.

mark4man
 
The AT4050 is a bright microphone, and therefore may not compliment a high tenor's voice well(it works great on mine, as I am a cellar dwelling bass). Maybe a mic with a touch of Color...AKG 414 comes to mind...They are very nice.

Studio Projects B1 have some color as well./

teddy
 
Thanks, Ray...

I would go for one of those, if:

A) I had the dough

B) I could figure out the difference between the:

C 414 B-TL II
C 414 B-ULS
C 414 B/XL II
C 414 B/XLS

The last two have 5 polar patterns, which I don't need...which narrows it down to the first two (which have 4 polar patterns.) After that...I'm lost. The B-TL II's capsule is a re-creation of the cap in the AKG C 12; & it's a transformerless design. The B-ULS is low noise & can take higher SPL's...

...I don't know...I'd like to hear those two compared.

mark4man
 
Mics U87

mark4man said:
I can't take it...
The Neumann's a bit out of my price range...but it's supposed to be the best at handling big SPL.
mark4man
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Have you tried a MXL V69? I own several and I've tried them next to the Neumann U87 and Manley Gold Ref. The V69 made the U87 sound dull. V69 made the Manley sound like it had a quilt over it.
 
Originally Posted by Robert D
So, the common denominator then would be your voice.
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paddyponchero said:
what he said
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What they said.
Are you sure it's not your voice?
Since we have not heard the buzz, I'm still leaning to this.
Wayne
 
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