It's a long way to the shop ... If you wanna sausage roll.

M

Mikey77

Member
My two starter mics are an SP-B1 and a single Rode NT5...for voice and guitar and I'm needing advice on what to get next. I'm beginning to record other people as a means of growing my skills and I want to get 2 or 3 more budget mics in the near future.

Recently I have recorded female jazz vocal, upright bass, grand piano, violin, & cello, and realise I need a broader palette of tools.

I thought that I would get a couple more SDCs (maybe the MXL 603s) and an LDC with more features than the B1 that would suit different vocal types, and some instrument applications such as Piano or Bass.
What is a good budget mic for Piano ???

To complement and extend the B1 I thought maybe the CAD M179 or the AKG Perception 400. Both have omni etc.
I read the MXL V67 is good on some vocals and instruments. Has anyone had any experience with the MXL 2010?

I have considered the Oktava mics but some folks say they seem to be inconsistent and my remoteness in the Blue Mountains west of Sydney doesn't help if you can't choose or when things go wrong.

Any feedback would be appreciated...Cheers
 
Why not get another NT5 so you have a matched pair? Also, you should have an SM57 for some vox and guit cabs.
 
Purchasing another NT5 wouldn't give you a matched pair. It would give you a pair.

Matching mics requires skill, time, effort and sometimes expensive trickery-boxes. Just because they're the same model doesn't mean they'll sound close enough to stereo pair them . . .

MohThoM
 
cello_pudding said:
you mean sm7?
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No, I meant an SM57. They are very useful utility mics and can sound very good on some vocals and guit cabs. Of course an SM7 would be better but costs three times as much.
 
mohthom said:
Purchasing another NT5 wouldn't give you a matched pair. It would give you a pair.

Matching mics requires skill, time, effort and sometimes expensive trickery-boxes. Just because they're the same model doesn't mean they'll sound close enough to stereo pair them . . .

MohThoM
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Thanks for the correction, I didn't really mean to say "matched pair." That was a slip. I do not believe, however, that perfectly matched pairs are essential for most stereo recordings done at the home studio level...and I believe I could match them close enough to suit my needs. Are you saying that buying another NT5 isn't a good idea?
 
Mikey,

An SM57 is a good idea for general use, look on Ebay Australia, there is a seller (alanchan1024) who is great to deal with and is in Sydney.

Although I'm not a fan of RODE, I have to say that getting a second NT-5 is probably a smarter move than buying a different budget pair of SD mics. I have both Oktava 012's and MXL-603's and both are good for certain applications........if you are considering 012's then I suggest you contact Warhead (Warren Dent) here on HR and enquire about importing them from the US, he has Front End Audio (not to be confused with the same name in Adelaide who I normally won't recommend).

Where LD mics are concerned, I have my preferences, one being the SP T3 which continues to surprise.

:cool:
 
Well, in response to your question TDUKEX . . .

It depends on what you're trying to do, and what you mean by matched pair. If you check out various different manufacturers, they'll give different tolerances for matching as well as individual frequency response graphs with pretty much any matching service (more on this later).

I guess my needs are different to most people here (I do high quality recordings of classical music) and as such when I get mics matched I need them matched to a fairly acute level - my Oktavas are matched to 0.5db difference, 20-20k - all 3 caps. I've seen other response graphs (for other pairs of the same mic) that vary 5-6db from mine. It would be difficult to get closer than 1-2db in an imperfect environment - even with silver ears (small step down from gold . . . ).

If you trust yourself to be able to do that kind of a test in an unfamiliar environment (music shop) on unfamiliar equipment then go ahead - it's your cash. I spent mine getting a trained professional to do the job for me on properly calibrated machines - and (I know it's an answer I use a fair amount) my clients seem pretty happy with it. I guess you're right - most home recordists will not need finely matched pairs of microphones to perform recordings - but only in the same way that most home recordists won't ever see those recordings hit the shops.

And, since you asked about the NT5, I would EVERY TIME choose the Oktava MK012s over them. I've used both, and I can't imagine any situation where the Oktava wouldn't win hands down on versatility, sound, value, anything. Given the range of applications we've been told about, I'd go for an LDC every time - one that's not designed just for voice.

In answer to the original question Mikey77, don't look for big names if you're recording acoustic instruments on a budget. I've not used the MXLs and can't vouch for them (but they get a hell of a good press) as they don't sell them to easily/affordably over in the UK, but I can vouch for the range that ADK sell. I've got TLs, SLs and Viennas (all LDCs) - and wouldn't trade any of them. For the best 'Swiss army knife' mic amongst those, the TL is multi pattern (4 patterns - omni, hyper, cardi and fig.8), sounds tight on the bass end whilst not adding too much air at the top. Perfect for voiceovers. The CAD M179 is one of only two microphones I've ever regretted buying - the reason I bought them was the low self-noise and flat response and when I actually threw them up on stands I was disappointed on both fronts. Save up another bit and treat yourself. If you need it today, consider the ADK A51V - I've got a friend with a couple and they're pretty sweet. I don't think I'd ever use one on piano (but I don't think I'd ever try and mic piano with 3/4 different mismatched mics) like I think you want to, but hey - teach me! ADK's support is great too - any problems I've had and I've been straight through to the head of the company (Cage would be proud!) - Larry's been amazing. From condensation on the capsule (diagnosed over the e-mail - fixed in 6hrs) to a broken screw on a shockmount (posted one over next day FOC - across the Atlantic) I can't praise them enough.

Well, I know I've come across as being forward and, Tdukex, I don't mean to offend anyone - it's just my way (I'm pretty opinionated). Hope there was a little food for thought there . . .

MohThoM
 
mohthom said:
Well, in response to your question TDUKEX . . .

It depends on what you're trying to do, and what you mean by matched pair. If you check out various different manufacturers, they'll give different tolerances for matching as well as individual frequency response graphs with pretty much any matching service (more on this later).
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I understand. We've all been through this topic before on this Board. See Harvey's mic sticky thread at the top of the forum.


mohthom said:
I guess my needs are different to most people here (I do high quality recordings of classical music) and as such when I get mics matched I need them matched to a fairly acute level - my Oktavas are matched to 0.5db difference, 20-20k - all 3 caps. I've seen other response graphs (for other pairs of the same mic) that vary 5-6db from mine. It would be difficult to get closer than 1-2db in an imperfect environment - even with silver ears (small step down from gold . . . ).
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Yes, your needs are different from most people who post here.

I do agree, from the limited knowledge I have of what it takes to do classical recordings properly, that you are doing it the proper way.

mohthom said:
If you trust yourself to be able to do that kind of a test in an unfamiliar environment (music shop) on unfamiliar equipment then go ahead - it's your cash. I spent mine getting a trained professional to do the job for me on properly calibrated machines - and (I know it's an answer I use a fair amount) my clients seem pretty happy with it. I guess you're right - most home recordists will not need finely matched pairs of microphones to perform recordings - but only in the same way that most home recordists won't ever see those recordings hit the shops.
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I do agree with this, and I do trust myself, and I have spent my money--and remain happy with my purchases.

mohthom said:
And, since you asked about the NT5, I would EVERY TIME choose the Oktava MK012s over them. I've used both, and I can't imagine any situation where the Oktava wouldn't win hands down on versatility, sound, value, anything. Given the range of applications we've been told about, I'd go for an LDC every time - one that's not designed just for voice.
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I have never heard the NT5. I suggested another because he already had one. It would be up to him to decide if he likes it for his applications. I do, however, agree that the MK012s are great mics. I use mine often on acou guit (paired with a Marshall MXL603s) and love it.

mohthom said:
Well, I know I've come across as being forward and, Tdukex, I don't mean to offend anyone - it's just my way (I'm pretty opinionated). Hope there was a little food for thought there . . .

MohThoM
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No problem, I appreciate your straightforwardness.
 
Thanks for all this info. A couple of people have talked about the 57 but I guess I've had it in my mind that a condenser was always a better option... maybe not. The B1 doesn't have an attenuator .... is there a good budget LDC that does and works for high SPLs like guitar amps.. thats why I wondered about the M179 or the MXL 2010, Anyone tried the MXL2010.

I had thought about another NT5, this is a good mic but they are a bit sterile, which is sometimes OK, and I heard that the MXL 603s were a bit more characterful and similar to the Oktava MC012s ???

By the way Chessrock... the sausage roll is a local reference to AC/DC... (it's a long way to the top) it's an Australianism of the distance factor of being out in the bush and far from the city. Ausrock probably knew what I meant. BTW thanks for the Alan Chan tip. I saw his name on ebay and wondered if he was a good option.

Hi MohThoM... I started out in Liverpool... thanks for all that feedback regarding the ADKs, we don't hear much about them over here but I'll have a look.

If you had to mic a piano with just one budget mic, what would you use and where would you place it. No rude suggestions please!!!
 
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Mikey77 said:
By the way Chessrock... the sausage roll is a local reference to AC/DC... (it's a long way to the top) it's an Australianism of the distance factor of being out in the bush and far from the city.
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Yea, I got the AC/DC thing. That's pretty funny stuff, now that you put it in context. :D You Aussies are crazy bastads.

.
 
Mikey,

On its own? No other instruments nearby? In a good room?

A single omni 2-4ft away from a (fully) open lid would give a fair sound. It depends on the omni - an electret would sound pretty harsh, and depending on the size of diaphragm and style of music you could have problems (esp. with a small diaphragm mic in a room with a moving air current . . . ) with noise. Where do you want it to sit in the mix - or are you just recording solo piano?

MohThoM
 
mohthom said:
It depends on the omni - an electret would sound pretty harsh, and depending on the size of diaphragm and style of music you could have problems (esp. with a small diaphragm mic in a room with a moving air current . . . ) with noise.
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You really ought to read the big thread at the top :rolleyes:
 
I've read the big thread at the top. I'm not talking from having read someone elses post - I'm talking from having used equipment out in the field. I hope that's not a problem - I'm just presenting what would be my solution.

MohThoM
 
mohthom said:
I've read the big thread at the top. I'm not talking from having read someone elses post - I'm talking from having used equipment out in the field. I hope that's not a problem - I'm just presenting what would be my solution.
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It's a problem when you present your strong opinions as physical facts. Electrets being harsh, omnis being subject to wind noise, wind noise primarily being a function of diaphragm size . . .

DPA microphones has a paper on the topic, I would suggest you read it. You would learn that suspectibility to wind noise is primarily a function of polar pattern, and cardioid mics are about 15dB worse off than omnis. Further, the simple use of a windscreen can decrease wind noise by a similar amount. Granted, a windscreen will cause some small loss of very high frequency response, but compared to the frequency response of a cardioid or large diaphragm mic, it will still be superior.

DPA also makes some very highly regarded electrets . . .
 
Thanks for the heads up on the DPA article - will get a copy. Is that available from their mic university site?

My reason for mentioning noise is that when I've used small diaphragm omni mics in rooms that have flowing current I tend to get results that are pretty unusable. The relatively higher self-noise of small diaphragm mics coupled with light wind noise gives me difficulties - but I guess it depends on what you're recording and how.

All I speak from is my own experience, and the only facts I deal in are that my recordings tend to sound pretty good. I accept that the generalisation 'electrets are harsh' is a little broad, but I've yet to hear one that has a sound I can agree with. As always, I'm ready and willing to be converted!

For myself, I prefer to get the room right rather than use windscreens etc. That said, I've had more problems with small diaphragm mics and wind than large diaphragm mics and wind (bar vocal applications of course!).

If you'd like to know how I record piano (as well as hear some sound samples), I'm more than happy to let you hear some of my samples drop me a PM - unfortunately I'm not willing to upload them for copyright reasons (I tend to record contemporary music, many composers with publishers that get angry). I guess what really matters is the sound we capture, not whether electrets are harsh/wind noise is a problem etc. If you can get great results with gear X then you do that. I think I get great results with my setup (and have tried a fair amount of gear getting there) - and have noticed what hasn't worked for me in the past as well.

Hope I haven't offended anyone,

MohThoM
 
mohthom said:
For myself, I prefer to get the room right rather than use windscreens etc. That said, I've had more problems with small diaphragm mics and wind than large diaphragm mics and wind (bar vocal applications of course!).
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That is probably because most large diaphragm mics are designed for vocals and have stronger internal screening, which has a similar effect to an external windscreen, with the difference that it is present at all times with the according effect on response (unless you mod the mic).

For example, my KSM44 has three layers of screening (medium, fine, and coarse), and then the capsule is set back a cm or two from the grille. By contrast, my KSM141s have a single fine screen, with the diaphragm only a few mm behind it. That is because the smaller microphone is intended for instrument use, where breath noise is not normally an issue.

However, Shure supplies a windscreen for such applications with the KSM141. There is no physical reason not to use a windscreen when indicated; it is a bias that has no basis is the performance of the microphone.

By the way, the KSM44 is externally biased; the KSM141 is an electret; either can be used to make an excellent recording of piano. The KSM141, due primarily to its smaller diaphragm, and perhaps secondarily to the screening on the KSM44, has superior high frequency response (to say nothing about the off-axis response!), resulting in more accurate recordings, if that is the objective.
 
Understood - and very informative!

It's not always about frequency response though - I used a pair of DPA 4052s alongside Oktava MK012s (again in omni) on a recent piano recording - and rejected the flat frequency response immediately. It just didn't sound that good! I do understand your point about the shielding and affecting frequency response, but don't think I can 100% subscribe to agreeing that a flat frequency response from an electret being the same as from a diaphragm.

I guess all we need to do now is agree a potential strategy for Mikey! What are your recommendations? And, if you've used one, what do you think of the CAD M179? It's got a pretty flat advertised frequency response . . .

MohThoM
 
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