Is this true?

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Uladine

Uladine

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Myths about digital audio...

I'm not saying he doesn't know what hes talking about, but according to his other articles his expertise lies in analog media. Since there are more people here that know about digital media maybe you can tell me if this guy knows what he says he knows.

Basically if you read through all his articles it seems like he likes to cap on digital audio and say how much better analog is. I dont know about you, but if you weigh the good and the bad of digital vs analog, I'm amazed that people still use analog exclusively.
 
Yeah but don't freak out or anything.

Really you should think of digital stuff the same way you do about analog stuff. Some digital processing makes things sound worse. Some analog processing makes things sound worse.

The audiophile geeks would have you believe that any digital processing is worse than analog processing. Yeah yeah yeah.

The digital industry would have you believe that digital is perfect and pure and anything digital is always correct and true. Yeah yeah yeah.

Nothing in that guy's article should have been too suprising, except for his first statement which is absolute bullshit. Unclocked digital transfer, such as copying from a hard drive to another hard drive, will result in a 100% perfect copy unless there is a device failure, in which case you're going to be having all sorts of problems (e.g., you'll notice it for cryin out loud). Everything else is just an explanation as to why some things in the digital realm make bad sounds. An analog geek could come out with a "truth about analog" article and explain with a lot of fancy pants figures why certain analog circuits make bad sounds. Big deal.

Don't get into numbers and BS....just listen. If any processing makes something sound worse, be it analog or digital, then don't use it. If you can't tell if it's making it worse or better, don't use it!

It can help to make informed decisions if you read up a little bit about how digital audio works. It will at least shed some light on the BS that the digital industry would like you to believe (e.g. do all CD players sound the same?). It will also help you to spot analog rhetoric. You should do some searching on the concept known as "jitter", it's an important one! :)

At any rate, the article isn't all untrue, but don't get too worried about it.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Everything comes with it's own set of problems.


A little off the subject, but doesn't that guy look like he should be doing self-help tapes? He has some good things to say, but I don't know how much I trust a guy with such perfect dental work.
 
Uladine,

> I'm not saying he doesn't know what he's talking about <

Okay, then I will. That's the biggest load of crap I've read in a long while. The notion that digital audio is "fragile" because computers crash and hard disks fail is particularly stupid. And an analog tape recorder never wrecked a tape while rewinding? If Wave files sound different to him after copying from one hard drive to another, he has a bigger problem with his ears (and his imagination) than with his gear.

If you want to read a legitimate article about audio myths, read my take on the subject:

www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

The Myths article is near the top of the list.

--Ethan
 
Ethan Winer? no way......glad you are here!!!!

now gentleman, if you wanna read some great artcicles, check out his site...we have another Audio God amongst us......
 
You know it's funny, I just re-read the original article there....when I first "skimmed it" I was only annoyed by his first claim, but then thought the rest of his comments were basically just regarding jitter issues. After Ethan's post, though, I read the article in its entirety, and realized how dangerous some of the statements are.

1) "Here's proof. Computers crash. Hard drives lose data. Files get fragmented. Norton and other utility programs are popular ways of "recovering" corrupted files. If all the one's and zeros worked perfectly every time, none of these problems would occur, since each file would do exactly as it was supposed to do each and every time."

This type of corruption is extremely rare, *and* you're going to know about it. Analog recording mediums like tape are as or more susceptible to degredation and failure, and in ways that you might not notice until it's too late.

2) "Even transferring a sound file from one hard drive to another changes the sound slightly. Never mind "saving" files to cdr or dat backup and then reloading back into a hard disk system. With all this technology available, musicians still have to balance (1) the amount of time it takes to learn these details (2) their time and budget and (3) the craft and passion of their music."

This statement is completely absurd and very dangerous. Data is not written to a hard drive or buffer with any regard to timing or magnitude. *Data* written to a CD is the same as data written to a hard drive or memory. If an error occurs, you're going to know about it. (this is not necessarily true when we talk about audio cd's, that's a different story)

3) "Whenever you change eq, compress or change levels in a hard disk system, you are making calculations in the computer. The actual word length is changing and the original "analysis" made by the A to D converters is being changed. The sound is being altered, and generally this means that some resolution of the tone is lost. This translates into a harder, shallower, less detailed sound. Smoothness, width, depth, and openness are some of the first qualities to go whenever these calculations are made."

Notice the complete lack of any quantifiable terminology? "Smoothness, width, depth, openness" blah. Yes, DSP implies performing calculations on digital audio. Yes, the sample values will be changed. If you want to think of this as "the original analysis made by the A to D converters is being changed", then so be it, even though technically the original analysis isn't being changed (duh).

He throws word length in there as though that in of itself is the problem. Yes, when you do DSP the word length is usually changing, but in the POSITIVE direction, and then the results of the DSP are dithered back down to the original word length. This process allows the DSP calculations greater accuracy, and doesn't somehow harm the sound by itself. The simple fact of the matter is that it IS POSSIBLE to have a digital processor that is the audible equivalent of an analog processor in the digital realm. In other words, if a digital processor can produce the same exact data file as an analog processor through a converter, then it's going to sound exactly the same. This doesn't mean that digital processing is just as good as analog though, it just means it has potential. Some things will sound better than others. Wow, there's a totally new concept.

4) "Dat machines and hard disk systems have moving components, moving tape etc. that are subject to errors, especially when handling huge sound files. Cable problems and word clock issues can cause jitter which affects solidity and resolution too."

A purely digital copy of a DAT or HD will not result in a degraded sound. Jitter is not copied. File size does not increase the chance of an error occuring, just the chance that an error will occur IN that particular large file. Not the same thing by a longshot.

5) "If you normalize your song/file, your computer is going through calculations that change the one's and zeros of your original signal. Huge amounts of level change will add some hardness and shrink the "sound stage"."

The "calculations" that the computer is going through when normalizing is a crazy little process called "addition". If a constant value is added to each sample in a file, then mathematically the waveform of the normalized file will be identical to the original, just with greater amplitude. In fact, the original samples can be "recovered" by simply subracting the constant value.



Anyhow, as I said earlier...digital audio can sound bad. Digital processing can sound bad. Analog audio can sound bad. Analog processing can sound bad. When you move a fader in your DAW software, you are multiplying a constant value against the sample stream. Any time you multiply, resolution does become an issue (e.g. what's 1/3? is it .3, .33, .333, .3333)....but so what. Anytime you move an analog fader you're relying on imprecise electronics to change the signal....so what.

I'm just an amature recording wannabe. Some of the things I say might not be entirely correct. However, I have learned one very important thing....if you can't hear it, it doesn't exist. It's best to gain as much listening experience as possible before you go head first into a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo. Eventually the techno mumbo jumbo will make sense, because you'll require it to quantify what you're hearing.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Wow Ethan, I must admit that I'm not familiar with your name, but I just checked out your site. Glad to see somebody with your expertise join the board!!!

Slackmaster 2000
 
Not to mention the biggest qualifier in his article...he says that audiophiles and professionals can tell a difference...well, I'm not an audiophile or a pro and almost without exception my music isn't played by people who are audiophiles or pros. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot for the best possible sound quality, but keep in mind who you do this for.
 
"Indeed, the single best way to maintain transparency is to minimize the number of devices in the audio path."

Thank you thank you thank you.
 
Guys,

Glad to be aboard. This is a nice forum that seems well focused on audio.

--Ethan
 
i don't remeber the law .. but it's a big DSP law that basically indicates that:

If you sample at twice the the frequency of your fastest signal, then you have a perfect digital clone of the original source.

That's why cd's are 44.1KHz. isn't it? (22.5Khz is highest audible frequency)

So if you record at 24 bits .. let your mixing software calculate everything with 32 bit floats or 64 bit double floats, then convert the result with dithering to 16 bits, you've basically done as good if not better than any analog device. correct?

that guy must have spent a year with cheech and chong if he believes that digital transfers are lossy.

When's the last time you sent an e-mail to someone and they receive it with the words garbled????

moron. a What
 
Mr. Winer

that synth you made in 74 looks pretty scary. hehe. wow .. you really are a master.

I bet YOU could build a electronic chokeable cymbal trigger/pad!
:-)
 
Re: Mr. Winer

TV,

> that synth you made in 74 looks pretty scary. hehe. wow .. you really are a master. <

Yeah, it IS scary! Every once on a while I dig out the schematics and marvel at what a huge job that was to design and build. And now, I just plug my DreamStation DXi into Sonar.

Ottawa, eh? Eh? :) I have a good friend who lives there who I visit every summer. I tried visiting him in the winter a few years ago. I will never do that again. But it's a VERY nice city in the summer.

--Ethan
 
Hey.

I did not read the article but I did see something that did not look right:

If you sample at twice the the frequency of your fastest signal, then you have a perfect digital clone of the original source.

Thats not quite right. Thats the Nyquist therem. If you sample at twice the frequency of your highest frequency sample you can adequately reproduce a signal. A higher sampling rate always gets you better sound supposedly up to about 192 khz.

If you sample too slow you will get a nasty thing called aliasing. Modern dsps have store and forward circuitry and really steep (6th order) anti aliasing filters that crop off everything over 20 khz to keep aliasing from happening on digital media. Also the first thing to go is often stereo imaging in the highs (drum overheads and stuff like that).

Digital aint perfect but it rocks for the speed and flexibility. DVD audio formats use 24 bit words by 92 khz sampling. If they ever get it together it will be "all that".

Understand I am not validating this schmoes points, He is probably an industry pundit with money to make.

I am merely regurgitating the same stuff my teacher lectured to me a month ago.
 
Fela,

> If you sample at twice the frequency of your highest frequency sample you can adequately reproduce a signal. A higher sampling rate always gets you better sound supposedly up to about 192 khz. <

Not true. If you sample at (slightly higher than) twice the highest frequency you need to reproduce, you will capture everything perfectly. Discounting other factors like less than perfect circuitry. There is no reason for extended sample rates. It gains nothing in terms of accuracy, and it's a big waste of bandwidth and storage space.

--Ethan
 
There is no reason for extended sample rates

However, longer "word length" in digital audio buys you: greater dynamic accuracy, as well as giving you some "breathing" room to apply digital effects while minimizing the "destructive" side-effects of processing.

Did I state that clearly? Is it an accurate statement?

-Shaz
 
Mr. Winer

Ottawa is a fine city. I wouldn't leave my guitar in a garage during the winter however.

Nyquist .. yeah that's what i ment. I didn't state the theorem properly but it was close.

So we've basically proved that digital sampling is as good if not better than analog reproduction and that digital transfers are far from lossy.

The gentleman's article was not refering to pc to pc copies of digital media so much as he was refering to the S/PDIF device interface to S/PDIF interface transmission. Is this the same as a digital copy? Or, can there actually be a loss?
 
Shaz,

> However, longer "word length" in digital audio buys you: greater dynamic accuracy, as well as giving you some "breathing" room to apply digital effects while minimizing the "destructive" side-effects of processing. <

Yes, in theory the more bits you have the greater the dynamic range and "accuracy" possible. But I am not convinced it is really necessary. I record at 16 bits and what I get out sounds just like what I put in. The key is to record at sensible levels. Maybe if I did more live orchestra recording I'd want 24 bits, so I could record at -30 for more safety instead of closer to -15. But in a typical pop music situation, it's not difficult to record at decent levels.

As for accuracy, it all boils down to distortion. If you record using 16 bits at an average level of -12 dB. below overload, distortion will be extremely low if the rest of the chain is high quality. And accuracy is really all about distortion.

As for breathing room, this is handled inside the DAW. Even though the Wave file is stored using 16 bits, the math performed by the DAW and plug-ins can (and should) be at a higher bit depth.

--Ethan
 
Re: Mr. Winer

tvaillan,

> he was refering to the S/PDIF device interface to S/PDIF interface transmission. Is this the same as a digital copy? Or, can there actually be a loss? <

I don't use SPDIF often enough to have a lot of direct experience, but I can't see why the transfer of data would be anything other than 100% accurate. The half-dozen times I've transferred a job from DAT to my computer via SPDIF, it always worked perfectly. (Except when the DATs were old and had gone bad, which was surprisingly often, but that's another topic.)

--Ethan
 
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