muttley600
Banned
The short answer is yes. Anything is repairable. To give an accurate estimate of the work involved would need some close up pictures of the cracks inside and out as well as a description of any symptomatic buzzes and the likes that cracks such as that can cause? Are they cracks or splits in the timber? have they only gone as far as the internal braces or are the braces loose as well?
I would suggest that it is well worth getting that guitar looked at by a luthier you trust or someone with a good portfolio of repair work and ask them for a detailed evaluation of the work involved. It's worth doing in my opinion. I see quite a few repairs through my shop on just such guitars. There are quite a few ways of approaching a job like that from removing the back and repairing the cracks to filling and cleating them. With many other options in between. Each approach is really down to the value of the instrument as there is a vast difference in cost.
Myself and other repairers and makers here have often been criticised for responding with "take it to a qualified and trusted luthier" but I do often offer advice on how to do things yourself. On this occasion I would strongly recommend getting it looked at by a qualified shop and if possible more than one. Then report back with their suggestions. It really is impossible to evaluate a job like that from just the picture you've supplied.
The longer you leave those cracks open the worse they will get. It looks like you have some wild grain there which will shrink further and be very hard to put back right if they are not attended to ASAP. The sound will not really be effected except for the possibility of buzzes from loose material and braces. The long term integrity of the instrument will be effected.
Good luck
I would suggest that it is well worth getting that guitar looked at by a luthier you trust or someone with a good portfolio of repair work and ask them for a detailed evaluation of the work involved. It's worth doing in my opinion. I see quite a few repairs through my shop on just such guitars. There are quite a few ways of approaching a job like that from removing the back and repairing the cracks to filling and cleating them. With many other options in between. Each approach is really down to the value of the instrument as there is a vast difference in cost.
Myself and other repairers and makers here have often been criticised for responding with "take it to a qualified and trusted luthier" but I do often offer advice on how to do things yourself. On this occasion I would strongly recommend getting it looked at by a qualified shop and if possible more than one. Then report back with their suggestions. It really is impossible to evaluate a job like that from just the picture you've supplied.
The longer you leave those cracks open the worse they will get. It looks like you have some wild grain there which will shrink further and be very hard to put back right if they are not attended to ASAP. The sound will not really be effected except for the possibility of buzzes from loose material and braces. The long term integrity of the instrument will be effected.
Good luck
0
0018G
New member
Are they repairable? Yes. Will it affect the sound? Shouldn't. The two at the bottom are stricly a cosmetic issue, IMO, but the sooner you fix any crack the better chance you have of a good glue bond and less cosmetic issues due to contamination. The top two are probably cosmetic as well, but their proximity to the neck block would make me a little nervous-you definately need to get those looked at. Better safe than sorry.
I think some Gibsons from the 70's had a laminated back and sides. Do these cracks go all the way through, or are they only in an outer lamination?
I think some Gibsons from the 70's had a laminated back and sides. Do these cracks go all the way through, or are they only in an outer lamination?
muttley600
Banned
0018G said:
No crack is a cosmetic issue on an acoustic. I would in fact be more worried about the lower bout cracks than the upper bout, simply because there is more room for movement on the lower bout. The blocks are irrelevant unless the back has come off the blocks. The blocks and braces act to stop cracks from spreading right off the edge as do linnings and kerffings. In some cases you need to get the back off the blocks to close the cracks and then struggle to get the rib to meet the back. Like I say every job of this nature is unique and really does need some experience to get right.
If it is a laminated back it is a different matter, but would still need to be attended to if the cracks have broken through the finish. There would be a strong possibility of the laminations separating if that were the case.
timboZ
New member
0018G said:
Yes they go all the way through.
I do not own this guitar yet. But I was thinking of making an offer to the owner.
muttley600
Banned
Factor in at least £100 per crack for the cost of the repair. I'll let Light quote you an idea in $'s but I think he'd be in the same ball park as a minimum. A very rough guess on that is at least 2 days work for a proper fix. Anything else is part dodge or not appropriate for the instruments value plus you would have someone under experienced working on it. One of the most common things us guys see is badly repaired cracks and splits. I don't think there is an area of repair that you get to see so many botched jobs, possibly neck resets but they are less common. Get it done right if you do get the instrument. Hope it works out for you.timboZ said:
Milnoque
Resident Curmudgeon
Although Gibson did make some instriments with laminated back and sides I don't believe that guitar is one of them.
The ones in the upper bout look to me to be wide of the neck block, But they may be close enough to make good cleating a pain.
Clean examples of that vintage Gibson are not highly sought after and the prices are not very high. Repaired, it would be even less desirable. Make sure you check on the current market value before you make an offer.
All that having been said, Some of those guitars have a surprisingly sweet tone, although they tend to lack volume. You should be able to string it up and hear it and decide for yourself. If there are no signs of damage to the back binding at the neck joint, you wouldn't further harm the guitar.
The ones in the upper bout look to me to be wide of the neck block, But they may be close enough to make good cleating a pain.
Clean examples of that vintage Gibson are not highly sought after and the prices are not very high. Repaired, it would be even less desirable. Make sure you check on the current market value before you make an offer.
All that having been said, Some of those guitars have a surprisingly sweet tone, although they tend to lack volume. You should be able to string it up and hear it and decide for yourself. If there are no signs of damage to the back binding at the neck joint, you wouldn't further harm the guitar.
G
ggunn
Crystal Flavolian
I don't see what the fuss is about. Haven't you got some duct tape? ;^)
muttley600
Banned
We have already established that the cracks go right through the back. In which case it is not a laminated back.Milnoque said:
I'll say it again the neck block has nothing to do with how effectively the guitar can be repaired. ditto the end block. If the cracks run to the block or the linnings is also irrelevant. You often need to free the back from the end block to close the cracks. The real problem these cracks often present is once the crack is closed the back will no longer sit on the rib if it has been removed from them. If the back is to remain on the ribs and blocks as it is the best option is often to piece in rather than try and close the cracks. It depends entirely on how much if at all the back has shrunk and shifted from it's original position. Experience tells me that they will be reluctant to close easily and the back will either need to be removed or the cracks will need to be carefully spliced in with new timber and the finish touched up. Neither is easy and I cannot qualify that without seeing the guitar in person. That is a best guess. Mahogany is inclined to pull across the grain more than other timbers, and it will shrink if left unattended. Take it to a reputable repairer and then take it to another...
You cannot say that with any certainty. The stability of a guitar with splits and cracks is dependant on more than the visual appearance of the binding round the heel cap. I would disregard this advice.
Light
New member
Yes, they can be repaired. The only concern I would have is the two in the upper bout (particularly that long one) might have knocked a brace loose, so that could add to the complication and expense.
At anyrate, probably about $85-100 each, with no touch up. We would recommend against touchup, as it doesn't add to the structural stability of the crack, and it is unlikely to look perfect afterwards. Touch up would approximately triple the cost and time of the repair. It would also be in the shop for at least 3-4 weeks before the work could start, as we would have to humidify it to get the cracks to close up enough to glue them (we are strongly dislike splining cracks - it doesn't look as good, and it doesn't seem to be as strong of a repair).
These things are our bread and butter. We do 300-600 guitars like this every year. It is extremely important to get them fixed ASAP. First of all, they will run and get worse (which also increases the likelihood of braces getting knocked loose); but also because dirt will work into the crack making it very difficult to get a good glue joint, and making the crack more visible once it is repaired; and finally because the wood will oxidize, which can keep the glue from making a good bond with the wood.
We first glue and clamp the crack (usually using LMI's instrument makers white glue, though on some guitars we use hide glue), and then we cleat the cracks from the inside with small diamond shaped cleats with their grain running about 45 degrees to the grain of the top. Out experience is that there is no perceptible difference in the sound of the guitar, unless it is for the better when we repair a rattling brace.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
At anyrate, probably about $85-100 each, with no touch up. We would recommend against touchup, as it doesn't add to the structural stability of the crack, and it is unlikely to look perfect afterwards. Touch up would approximately triple the cost and time of the repair. It would also be in the shop for at least 3-4 weeks before the work could start, as we would have to humidify it to get the cracks to close up enough to glue them (we are strongly dislike splining cracks - it doesn't look as good, and it doesn't seem to be as strong of a repair).
These things are our bread and butter. We do 300-600 guitars like this every year. It is extremely important to get them fixed ASAP. First of all, they will run and get worse (which also increases the likelihood of braces getting knocked loose); but also because dirt will work into the crack making it very difficult to get a good glue joint, and making the crack more visible once it is repaired; and finally because the wood will oxidize, which can keep the glue from making a good bond with the wood.
We first glue and clamp the crack (usually using LMI's instrument makers white glue, though on some guitars we use hide glue), and then we cleat the cracks from the inside with small diamond shaped cleats with their grain running about 45 degrees to the grain of the top. Out experience is that there is no perceptible difference in the sound of the guitar, unless it is for the better when we repair a rattling brace.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Light
New member
Milnoque said:
Cracks run, and at least one of those things has already gone past a brace, meaning that there is very likely a loose brace in there. Cracks are structural issues, and MUST be fixed if you want the guitar to last.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
D
danny.guitar
Guest
I watched a video on a Taylor site. The guy used dampets to help "heal" the crack before sending it off to repair. Looked almost perfect when he was done with it (before sending it off). Or maybe that is only for humidity/moisture-related cracks? 
Light
New member
muttley600 said:
Broken pegheads. The string of unbelievably bad, frequently epoxied, and rarely in register, broken pegheads is unbelievable, and unbelievably depressing.
But yeah, a lot of badly repaired cracks. One of the other repair shops in town is in the habit of using Gorilla Glue, and then NOT cleating the cracks. (That is the most common mistake on these things - they either don't cleat the crack, or they don't glue the crack. They do one or the other, but not both. Well, that and they almost never bother to clean up the glue squeeze out.)
Also, figure on spending twice as much to have a botched repair fixed as you would have paid to get it done right in the first place. If we have to undo bad work, it takes a LOT of time.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Light
New member
danny.guitar said:I watched a video on a Taylor site. The guy used dampets to help "heal" the crack before sending it off to repair. Looked almost perfect when he was done with it (before sending it off). Or maybe that is only for humidity/moisture-related cracks?
Most cracks are humidity related, at least where I live. The ones "whack" cracks are usually already tight, once you get them back into register with one another. But yeah, humidifying the crap out of a crack is a major part, and always the first part, of the repair.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
muttley600
Banned
I've found that humidifying cracks on wild grain mahogany to be a real pain at times. That stuff wants to go where it goes. Let us know if you get an opinion on it I'd be interested.
I learnt a lot about fixing and claeting cracks working on fiddles and violins many years ago. I've seen a lot of badly repaired cracks and yes it takes as long to get a bad repair ready as it does to do it correctly.
I learnt a lot about fixing and claeting cracks working on fiddles and violins many years ago. I've seen a lot of badly repaired cracks and yes it takes as long to get a bad repair ready as it does to do it correctly.
Yep them too, glad its not just over here that people attack decent instruments with gusto and rarely the first idea of the damage they are causing