Is it the Speaker? Or the Tube?

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soundchaser59

Reluctant Commander
......that determines when the "breakup" happens? The amp I am getting is a Traynor YCV20WR, my first ever "all tube" amp.

from the Yorkville web site:
The YCV20WR is a "Class A" power amplifier driven by three Sovtek 12AX7A's and two EL84's and features a Celestion "Greenback" G12M 12 inch speaker
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When people more experienced with tube amps than me talk about things like "more volume before it breaks up" what are they really saying? Besides the obvious idea that it sounds louder before it distorts??

Is it the tubes that determine how much gain and volume I get before the sound distorts? Can I get better "volume before breakup" by selecting certain kinds of tubes? I know the tone will vary, but what will it do for "volume before breakup"??

Or is it the speaker that determines when it distorts, regardless of the tubes inside??

A few people have said they want to take out the Greenback and put in a Weber or something, because they feel the Greenback "breaks up too early" and they want it to sound louder before it breaks up and distorts. They say to put in a higher wattage rated speaker to achieve this, and they dont really say anything about wanting to change out the tubes. On the other hand, I've had a few say that they love the Greenback and the only thing they would change is the tubes. I'm not positive, but I suspect the people who want to change the speaker are hardened blues players, while the people who want to change the tubes are looking for more of a rock or classic rock sound......

I want a classic rock sound - think the first Doobie Bros album, that type of sound - but I want it to be as loud as possible also (for this size amp).

What do you guys think? Will I get what I want with the Greenback? With a different speaker? Or just by changing tubes? Or both? - SC (recovering from solid state!)
 
You will be getting distortion primarily from 3 places:
1. preamp tubes
2. power amp tubes
3. speakers

Each type of distortion has a different sound to it, the combination of these distortions is what makes up the overall sound.
 
Bigger tubes = more headroom (clean sound).

Smaller tubes = quicker distortion of the tubes via compression.

The wattage of the speaker determines how much it can handle before it breaks up too.


I would say that 99.9% off all distortion homerecorders get is via tubes. Unless that tube amp is cranked all the way, there isn't much chance for the speakers to start clipping. -Plus the speaker really has to be matched to the amp/wattge for that to happen.

A Greenback is 25 watts. So your 20 watt Traynor when cranked could probably dish out about 30 watts +/- (don't quote me on that). That may or may not be enough to distort the speaker.

FWIW I like Greenbacks. Infact I hve a Marshall cab loaded with them.
 
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Outlaws said:
Bigger tubes = more headroom (clean sound).

Smaller tubes = quicker distortion of the tubes via compression.
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Whaa? It's not the size of the tubes; two tubes that look identical can have totally different characteristics. Groove Tubes, for example, tests their stock and rate them on a 1 to 10 scale for distortion characteristics and sells matched pairs.
 
ggunn said:
Whaa? It's not the size of the tubes; two tubes that look identical can have totally different characteristics. Groove Tubes, for example, tests their stock and rate them on a 1 to 10 scale for distortion characteristics and sells matched pairs.
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OMG are you kidding? WOW!

Dude, for reals. Some might be a little different, but in general, they are the same.

Show me a KT88 that breaks up quicker and with less volume than my 6K6.

And by the way...they rate them for 'distortion characteristics' because they needed something that was a 'positive feature' (if you can call it that) so they can spin what is really just shitty quality control.
 
Personally, I think that you're worrying about it too much. The amp will sound about like you describe as what you want right out of the box. Play with it for a few months, really learn how all of the controls affect the tone, and if you still can't find the tone you're looking for, then start worrying about swapping the tubes or the speakers.

I can't remember how the gain stages are on the YCV20, but on my YCV80 the crunch channel has gain, volume, and a master volume. After a couple of years, I'm still finding combinations of these 3 knobs that have surprising results. Its like a freaking combination lock sometimes :)

I was very disappointed in my amp on the first day that I got it. I just didn't understand what all I needed to do to get "my" tone out of it. But I've kept experimenting with it and now I have 3 or 4 main tones on this amp that I love.

But here's a tip that'll save you some heartache on that first day of playing around with the amp: the "treble" knob is really more of a "presence" knob...I keep it turned almost all the way down because it introduces that "beehive" type of distortion that I can't stand. Compensate by adding more mids than you're used to and it sounds really nice (to my ears at least).
 
Also keep in mind a 'Break-in' period of 15-20 hours of playing till the speaker is ready to rock,.....


and Sovtek tubes are fine for the time being,... altho somewhat 'THIN' when it comes to a full tone,...... you will love the sounds of an all tube amp,... it is MUCH more responsive to how you play,.....


Steve
 
Outlaws said:
OMG are you kidding? WOW!

Dude, for reals. Some might be a little different, but in general, they are the same.

Show me a KT88 that breaks up quicker and with less volume than my 6K6.

And by the way...they rate them for 'distortion characteristics' because they needed something that was a 'positive feature' (if you can call it that) so they can spin what is really just shitty quality control.
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There may well be only small diffs between tubes of the same make and model, but there is no correlation that I know of between power tube size and how much they distort at a given volume.
 
Well, one thing I'm counting on is something I've learned to do with my Vox amp....

Turn the post gain and the master volume all the way up, turn the "power soak" knob on the back to set the room volume, then use the pregain and the guitar volume to get the tone and distortion I want........I'm much happier doing it this way. Yeah, I dont like a lot of presence either.

I have a ss Traynor practice amp that is the most tube-like sounding ss amp I've ever heard, but that presence control just drove me nuts once. I couldn't figure out where that kazoo wax-paper "beehive" distortion was coming from. It almost sounded like microphone diaphragm overload. So I actually sat down with my face right in front of the amp and started turning knobs, and sure enough that presence control was the sole culprit for all of my unwanted noise.

I'm impressed with Traynor stuff, I played the YCV80Q in the store and loved it, but I cant play the window shattering amps any more. I will play this amp for quite a while "as is" before I decide if I'm going to mod anything about it. I have a hunch I will end up just trying a different set of tubes. I'm sure that Greenback speaker will not be anything to sneeze at.....

Thanks for the info.....
 
You could also try plugging the amp into a different cabinet to try different sounds. Those Celestions are pretty darn good, though.
 
kludge said:
You could also try plugging the amp into a different cabinet to try different sounds. Those Celestions are pretty darn good, though.
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That will happen. I have a homade cab with a Weber Silver Bell in it, another homade cab I'm doing will be 2x10 Eminence Legends. I will try all of the possible combinations, maybe even rent a 4x12 or something just so I can hear it. That's half the fun sometimes!!
 
To go back to what will give you distortion, it's typically in the preamp tubes and the output ones mostly are for volume although they definitely dontribute to gain. I've got a Sound City and I couldn't get enough gain out of it so I added a one watt tube amp to it as just another all tube stage of preamp.
 
hungovermorning said:
To go back to what will give you distortion, it's typically in the preamp tubes and the output ones mostly are for volume although they definitely dontribute to gain. I've got a Sound City and I couldn't get enough gain out of it so I added a one watt tube amp to it as just another all tube stage of preamp.
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How is this done? Is it used like a pedal? How is this different from using an overdrive like a tube screamer?
 
Farview said:
You will be getting distortion primarily from 3 places:
1. preamp tubes
2. power amp tubes
3. speakers

Each type of distortion has a different sound to it, the combination of these distortions is what makes up the overall sound.
Click to expand...

Some people say that you only get the best distortion when you really get the speakers moving (do a search for "Slipperman"). Some say that you will get better distortion from overloading the power tubes, as opposed to overdriving the preamp (see: http://www.amptone.com/index.html ).

I remember that are a few sites that discuss the properties of different tubes (e.g. which ones distort earlier). Try www.thetubestore.com
 
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