Is it the mic or the mix?

MC Gitarz

MC Gitarz

New member
Y'all have been pretty busy out here - so I'm adding another tune - just what you need!! I re-cut a song called "To A Friend" found here: http://www.nowhereradio.com/MCGitarz/singles

OK - 'the strings' emanate from a $200 Yamaha thing - can't help that. I think the guitars sound pretty good - large diaphragm condenser (not the best). The bass is electric 'cause I can't afford an upright. But the vocals seem muddy. Aside from the lack of really good singing technique (and voice!) I think they need to be more distinct. I was right up on the same mic - singing softly. (Tube MP pre direct to BR-1180) There's no real EQ to speak of - I cut a lot of bottom from the harmonies to try to get them to stand alone but they all seem to run together - there's a slight bit of compression.

When I listen to pro recordings (Oh don't worry - I'm not trying to cut a 'pro' album on my gear!) I hear the voices clearly defined. Is this all because of the mic? Or is it because the back-up singers are different people with different timbre to their voices?

I've got more than 40 tunes from this group so far - all of them are really impressive - not just to me - I play the CD in my office and people always ask "Who is that?"

But I'm learning a lot and improving my ears a whole lot by hanging around out here. If you get a chance - give a listen and shoot me a line or two.

Thanks in advance!! The real music is happeing here!
Milan
 
MC Gitarz said:

When I listen to pro recordings I hear the voices clearly defined. Is this all because of the mic? Or is it because the back-up singers are different people with different timbre to their voices?
Click to expand...

It can be a number of things- mic, pre, voices, EQ...



This sounds pretty good. The acoustic guitars sound really nice. I think vocals "sound" good. Maybe the lead could use a little bit cut from thelow mids (300-500Hz?)

The overall recording sounds appropriately recorded and well mixed for the "genre," though not in anyway my area of experience. The harmonies are tight too. Someone who hasn't been mixing hard rock for the last hour may be more help. :)

Good job.
 
Thanks for the listen! I appreciate your input because your stuff is very tight. And curiously enough - now that you mention it - back in the days of my playing live - that was the regular setting on my voice - cut low mids and bosst the treble just a tad. I'll give it a try - not much I can do about the voice - actually that's the best this voice can sound! I sang a lot of back-ups - seldom lead - for very sound readons!!
Thanks again - I'll give it a shot.
(If I can get enough people to say it's the mic - I might talk the little woman into letting me buy a Shure or something better!!)
Milan
 
Both mix and mic ?

Guitar is very crisp with full body.
At 19, perhaps a little too crisp, those few strums, send those to a seperate bus and slather them in delay ?, perhaps, or maybe do them with your thumb and not a pick ?
But very nice.

The use of strings here is very nice to provide a bed for the lyric, to really gently wrap the whole song. The song has a nice flow.

Thank you for mixing the vocal clearly on top of the mix.
Nice vocal performance, very relaxed.
Understood all the words the first time, never a moment where I was dreading not being able to make out the next phase.

Backups and harmony vocals are done nicely, double or triple them if you can and you will be able to bring them further up out of the mix, harmony vocals are 'GOLDEN'.

As to the 'definition' of voices, in the big studios yes, they use a lot of different mics, mics are almost like instruments when you have a bunch of them and some are much better for backup vocals, it's always a decision to make based on the material and the singers available, mic selection does play a big role in 'vocal seperations'. Using the same mic for vocals and the guitar also tends to saturate the bandwidth where the mic responds the best, and this creates less seperation.

At 2:14, I would like to hear an instrumental break, even a short solo, maybe 4 slow bars, maybe a little piano restating the melodic material with some slow chords moving in half notes underneath that.

Almost a touch of the early 'Burl Ives' here.

The only improvement I could think of for your mid-baritone vocal would be to further smooth it and really take advantage of the maturity in your voice on the backup vocals.
There is a 'water method' you can use when you record the backup vocals, you've probably seen folks do it, maybe you've done it yourself.

Keep a glass of room temperature water handy and take a small sip and hold it in your mouth, breathing deeply and gently flexing the passages to completely moisten all the vocal 'membranes' and sinuses. Resist the temptation to swallow the water and let the 'magic liquids' build up :-) , some call this stuff saliva ... yes, tilt the head back gently and very gently gargle just for a short little burst, and continue until the vocal chords are totally pristine. Then sing the backups with that clean clear voice with a little more support, a little more agressively and you'll have a real bed of silk in the backup vocals.


At 2:52, this pause and slowing of the song is very dramatic and I would fade the strings here instead of swelling ... as you have already mentioned your dissatisfaction with the keyboard samples. But you really have enough around the keys that is in it's sonic range where the mix is good enough to cover a bit for any perception of weak samples on the strings, and it's tasteful string arranging also.

Once again at 4:08, maybe not a swell, maybe a dimenuendo here, rolling some delay off the strings here, and especially at the end, the swell of the strings, because they are not high quality samles detracts from the song, because it is the last impression we get.

The guitar and vocal are good enough sonically where your reliance on the sampled strings as a strong musical element in the mix does detract from this very, very nice song and performance, thanks for sharing.

I would like to have a tune to do a simple string arrangement like this for just laying down about 10 violin tracks with two different instruments, 5-8 viola tracks and 3-4 cello tracks, maybe more, and then mixing those all together at the barely audible level for warmth and body just to 'hold' a song like that in the warmth and body of the arrangement. Because the actual musical material is not challenging for the strings, it would be a good arrangement to create a 'full ensemble' sound for.

Thanks for sharing, nice tune.
 
Ahh, some nice folk music on a Sunday morning. :) (I needed this after just listening to Sluice's piece to bring me back down :D)

Very cool in a Peter, Paul & Mary sort of way. Sounds well recorded and the harmonies sound spot on. I could hear everything well vocal wise and playing wise.

You did a nice job on this. Though I don't know the answers to your questions, I would assume that it probably has to do with a little bit of everything: mics, which room it is recorded in, the eq, who is producing, what instruments are being used, etc...I think every part goes into the whole...just my take. :)
 
I'm no expert, and my tunes will prove that, but I think this sounds great.

I do think that if you're trying to get a really clear vocal, it's practically impossible with harmonies because they all blend together into one fat voice. I also notice that when the lead singer sings solo, his notes are very similar to the notes in the music. that seems to mud it up just a bit because there's not enough contrast (I'm stretching here), but I think this sounds great!
 
Wowie Zowie!
Thanks for listening, folks.
Robertt8
Thanks for the knd words - I now I may be getting too picky given the limitations of my gear. I don't have a lot of options - only one insert - EQ limited to two bands (variable - but still only two bands) And I think you're hearing what I hear - similar timbre because it's the same person singing!! (I need female backups!!)

Boydrj
Thank you!! Interesting you should mention Sluice - I was listening to "Fold" as I was getting the MP3 together! Now there IS some contrast. He's a powerful writer! And as I said before - add the limitations of my gear and my voice and you have the makings for nothing spectacular!! Thanks for the ears!!

Studioviols
Man - that's a critique! Thank you!! I was thinking of asking you if you were interested in "stringing" this tune up. Let me know and I'll try to get you some tracks.

Believe it or not I've been reading a lot of your posts regarding vocals and I have, indeed, tried some of the techniques. I'll give the water treatment a try (I always have a glass of Coke nearby - guess water's better, huh? - Oh - I forgot to mention - I smoke - I was tossed out of the college concert choir because of it - life's choices...)

But - lousy lead voice aside - I do believe I'm limited somewhat in the gear department. I use a Boss BR-1180 which is primarily designed as a musical notebook. EQ is very limited so I always try to get the absolute best signal going into the machine. The finger-picked guitar needed no EQ. I backed off the bottom and added a little shimmer to the rhythm.

But I might try a different mic for the background vocals - great idea!! I have an SM-58 that I used regularly until I bought the condenser - now I think I want another condenser!! And I never for a moment considered the mic's voice. I think it's worth a try - it may thin the back-ups just enough. (But I want female back-ups!!)

This afternoon I re-cut the vocals - this time being almost a foot away from the mic - the result was MUCH clearer - but the timbre issue remains - and no mic in the world can fix the wavering pitch.

I'm going to try the delay idea on the backward rakes at :19. (They were my representation of church bells - the shrill was intentional - they repeat about 2:29 and they're much more subdued - but I like your idea - gonna try it!)

Man - I wrote as much as you did - thank you so much for your time. I'll keep you posted on the progress. I really appreciate your time both in listening and responding.

Burl Ives! Wow - I wonder how many people out here know about him?? Let me know if I can send you some tracks - would love to hear it with real strings (and maybe a real singer!!)

Ciao for now - back to the studio
Milan
 
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