is 30W enough

[Ed Dixon]

Yes, I understand the physics of the wattage thing, but it doesn't seem to play into real life . . . perhaps the bigger cabs/bigger speakers/more speakers of bigger amps really do a lot in the perceived loundess, because I know for a fact a 10 Watt amp on full does not sound as loud as a 100 watt amp on half.

All else being equal, it tends to be pretty accurate. Plug the 10W amp into the same cabinet as the 100W and perform the test. Use some gear to measure actual watts. It will be pretty close.

It's also the case that volume knobs are only an indication of the actual output. Just setting it to half does not quarantee much about actual power or level. It's just lower than full.

Ed

 

[Outlaws]

The more watts the louder you can get a clean (less distortion) signal.

 

[Ed Dixon]

The more watts the louder you can get a clean (less distortion) signal.

That's true, as higher watts yields generally more headroom (again all other things being equal). However the difference between 30 and 50 is still insignificant.

There is also considerable difference between different amps as to how they handle/react to overdrive situations. Some have very solid ceilings and truly clip whereas others are more gentle in their handling. There is quite often much more difference here when comparing amps that the small differnence in output power.

However when the difference is large (10W compared to say 500W) other problems can occur like trying to turn the amp down low enough to get the volume low enough. You can get into cases where 1 (on vol knob) is too low and 1+ is too high.

Ed

 

[Outlaws]

That's true, as higher watts yields generally more headroom (again all other things being equal). However the difference between 30 and 50 is still insignificant.

There is also considerable difference between different amps as to how they handle/react to overdrive situations. Some have very solid ceilings and truly clip whereas others are more gentle in their handling. There is quite often much more difference here when comparing amps that the small differnence in output power.

However when the difference is large (10W compared to say 500W) other problems can occur like trying to turn the amp down low enough to get the volume low enough. You can get into cases where 1 (on vol knob) is too low and 1+ is too high.

Ed

I can tell the difference in headroom on a 30 watt and 50 watt amp. Find a heavy handed drummer and test this yourself.

Same thing goign from 15 to 30 watts. The head room difference and volume differnce is there. Its not techincally twice as loud, but its loud enough that anyone with half their hearing left can tell one is louder than the other....and one stays clean a little longer.

 

[noisedude]

I can tell you this - last summer I recorded an entire album for a band that we did as 'live in the studio' ... the drummer and two guitarists were all playing at the same time. The amps were a 30W Spider and my Vox AD15VT. It was not a large room and yet the AD15 had NO problem making itself heard above the drums, and the recordings of both amps had very little spill in them because of some creative positioning.

30W will do you fine, and you can switch down the wattage for recording great tones at low volumes. These amps are very cool but, as a Korg/Vox dealer myself, I know that they aren't the most reliable amp in the world (though considerably more so than the majority of the Marshall range, which are retail boomerangs ... they just keep coming back).

 

[soundchaser59]

I dont know......I'm not convinced..... I jammed several times recently with a home made blues band, drummer, bass, mouth harp, and my 30 watt Marshall and it definitely was not enough. 50w would have been much, much better with the drums.

 

[ggunn]

I dont know......I'm not convinced..... I jammed several times recently with a home made blues band, drummer, bass, mouth harp, and my 30 watt Marshall and it definitely was not enough. 50w would have been much, much better with the drums.

You guys must've been pretty damn loud; my 22 watt Deluxe Reverb keeps up really well in my 7 piece band, and we are not particularly quiet.

 

[Farview]

I dont know......I'm not convinced..... I jammed several times recently with a home made blues band, drummer, bass, mouth harp, and my 30 watt Marshall and it definitely was not enough. 50w would have been much, much better with the drums.

Did you have the amp on the floor facing your ankles? If your ears are 5 or 6 feet in the air, you might want to point the speaker there.

 

[nbffan]

Its mostly all about the drummer.

Amp wattage is not going to be your problem. In most cases playing with a drummer, you have to be careful with amp placement. Most drummers like to hear everything hit, so if you have your amp facing the drummer or directly in back of the drummer he will not be able to hear himself while playing at a normal level. As a result, he's gonna beat the hell out of his drums any you will not be able to hear yourself playing. Practice moving the amp around the room until both of you are comfortable and don't be afraid to tell him to tone it down......cause its all an ego thing with drummers .

 

[soundchaser59]

I made all of those mistakes..... amp on the floor, amp behind the drummer, amp facing away, etc.etc.etc.....

But now that I've tasted a 50w tube amp, I aint going back to 30 ever!

 

[Ed Dixon]

I can tell the difference in headroom on a 30 watt and 50 watt amp. Find a heavy handed drummer and test this yourself.

Same thing goign from 15 to 30 watts. The head room difference and volume differnce is there. Its not techincally twice as loud, but its loud enough that anyone with half their hearing left can tell one is louder than the other....and one stays clean a little longer.

Still not the same thing. Any two amps are different. Comparing apples and oranges never works. Get a sound pressure meter and measure identical amps at different watt levels. Then you will see how this works. Use pink noise so it is a controlled environment.

Having done this any number of times, the science is still accurate. The difference between 30 and 50 watts is about 2db, which for most is barely audible.

Ed

 

[BrentDomann]

This is probably a gross generalization, but it seems to me that a lot of the people that feel they need tons of extra power perform with a considerable amount of distortion. It also seems that the times I have been more successful in standing out in the mix or sounding good on tape come from using less of that. Mind you, I said "less", not "none".

As a convert to relatively 'clean' power myself, I am going to give you a really cliche sort of spiel: When you listen to a guitar, you are listening to a musical instrument. That being said, the sounds coming out of that instrument have nuances and overtones that are fundamental in giving that particular instrument its tonal charactersitics, timbre, and 'voice'...and ultimately they are what will distinguish it from other 'sounds' coming from other instruments in a band setting. Tons of distortion hides a lot - it amplifies all of those tonal characteristics to the point at which none are louder than any other, and thereby removes a lot of the "character" from a tone. And, when you stick that into a band situation, you will be "fighting for frequencies" with other band members. Once your guitar is loud enough, the crash cymbal will disappear. All of a sudden your drummer is banging harder and you'll have to keep turning knobs.

Personally, I tend to run a smaller tube amp so hot it breaks up at the power stages and get a better, seemingly louder (i.e. MORE AUDIBLE) tone - even compared to a 100-watt head and a 4x12" cabinet with some sloppy four-transistor-gain-stage distortion pedal.

This sort of volume is what will compete with your drummer, not all the high-frequency hiss of a saturated guitar tone. And, on top of that, I at least find it really refreshing to have a screaming pinch harmonic and realize it's not audible because of a stomp box, but because my amp is just that damn loud (and, in fact, STILL is not putting out the decibel level of a monster amp and a "Cheese Metal" foot pedal).

Sorry for the rant...I'm not trying to make any enemies. I just would like to offer the opinion that 'volume' is a perceptual thing as well as a scientific thing (for example, there is a distinction between "volume" and "amplitude"), and also that doing things to destroy the unique character of your instrument will necessarily make it harder to distinguish amongst other instruments.

Cheers,

~Brent

P.S. - Sorry about the caps. I hate all caps, but can't get italics to show up. I think html is disabled somewhere in my post settings.

 

[ggunn]

This is probably a gross generalization, but it seems to me that a lot of the people that feel they need tons of extra power perform with a considerable amount of distortion. It also seems that the times I have been more successful in standing out in the mix or sounding good on tape come from using less of that. Mind you, I said "less", not "none".

As a convert to relatively 'clean' power myself, I am going to give you a really cliche sort of spiel: When you listen to a guitar, you are listening to a musical instrument. That being said, the sounds coming out of that instrument have nuances and overtones that are fundamental in giving that particular instrument its tonal charactersitics, timbre, and 'voice'...and ultimately they are what will distinguish it from other 'sounds' coming from other instruments in a band setting. Tons of distortion hides a lot - it amplifies all of those tonal characteristics to the point at which none are louder than any other, and thereby removes a lot of the "character" from a tone. And, when you stick that into a band situation, you will be "fighting for frequencies" with other band members. Once your guitar is loud enough, the crash cymbal will disappear. All of a sudden your drummer is banging harder and you'll have to keep turning knobs.

Personally, I tend to run a smaller tube amp so hot it breaks up at the power stages and get a better, seemingly louder (i.e. MORE AUDIBLE) tone - even compared to a 100-watt head and a 4x12" cabinet with some sloppy four-transistor-gain-stage distortion pedal.

This sort of volume is what will compete with your drummer, not all the high-frequency hiss of a saturated guitar tone. And, on top of that, I at least find it really refreshing to have a screaming pinch harmonic and realize it's not audible because of a stomp box, but because my amp is just that damn loud (and, in fact, STILL is not putting out the decibel level of a monster amp and a "Cheese Metal" foot pedal).

I totally agree. I have both a Les Paul and a Strat, and I used to mainly play the Paul through a 50w Marshall. Then I bought a 1964 Deluxe Reverb (22w), and it totally changed me. I now play the Strat almost exclusively, right at the edge of breakup on the Deluxe; there is tons more definition to my sound now, and I can hear it better, even though it is not as loud.

 

[battleminnow]

I had one and upped it to the 50 watt Vox. You could hear it over the drums, but it didn't have any bottom end. I am much happier with the 50 watter.

Pete