Intonation
- Thread starter Imaduck
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mshilarious
Banned
lpdeluxe said:
Amen! Bending strings is so 20th century, and wound Gs sound very groovy on Gibsons. Unwound Gs just sound . . . Fender
Light
New member
dragonworks said:On my 1972 Gibson ES-335 there is not enough travel on the bridge saddles to set the intonation correctly. She just about makes it. Anyway, my buddie told me there is another bridge that has a little more travel that fits my baby. That and some good tuners are in order.
If you have the ABR-1, then the Nashville Tune-o-matic will probably take care of the issue, but they do not fit on the old posts, so you need to do some minor but non-reversable alteration to the guitar. It is not, there for, recomended.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
timmerman
-------------------------
Wound G String
Ipdeluze and mshilarious...................... Wound G above unwound G.....
Well guys [or ladies] so I'll guess I have to give that one a try to see how I feel about that one.
Is't guitar great? Can change all these things, make it totally feel and sound how you like, and once you think you are done you start going back to where you came from. Yep a never-ending story.............GREAT!
Eddie
Ipdeluze and mshilarious...................... Wound G above unwound G.....
Well guys [or ladies] so I'll guess I have to give that one a try to see how I feel about that one.
Is't guitar great? Can change all these things, make it totally feel and sound how you like, and once you think you are done you start going back to where you came from. Yep a never-ending story.............GREAT!
Eddie
alien
New member
I've seen a few references about the guitar sounding out of tune when the intonation was set.
That can be for two reasons:
1) Your string height was off. When setting the intonation, always fret the string at the 12th fret instead of using the harmonic. The string tends to bend a bit when it is fretted.
I learned how to set my intonation from quite a few guitar techs who toured in the 80's (and still do). Been setting it myself since I was 16.
2) If it still sounds a bit out of tune when fretting the upper octaves, remember this. The standard guitar is fretted at equal distance across the strings. Now, envision the inside of a piano or a harap. The strings are all cut to different lengths. This is not just for tuning, but what is called scale length.
Scale length is compromised on a guitar with standard fretting. Fan fretted necks are starting to catch on. The frets are arranged not for comfort, but for scale length.
One guitarist (famous sort, forget who tho) stated that if you aren't playing a fan fretted neck, then you aren't playing in tune. Though boastful in his comment, it is true.
That can be for two reasons:
1) Your string height was off. When setting the intonation, always fret the string at the 12th fret instead of using the harmonic. The string tends to bend a bit when it is fretted.
I learned how to set my intonation from quite a few guitar techs who toured in the 80's (and still do). Been setting it myself since I was 16.
2) If it still sounds a bit out of tune when fretting the upper octaves, remember this. The standard guitar is fretted at equal distance across the strings. Now, envision the inside of a piano or a harap. The strings are all cut to different lengths. This is not just for tuning, but what is called scale length.
Scale length is compromised on a guitar with standard fretting. Fan fretted necks are starting to catch on. The frets are arranged not for comfort, but for scale length.
One guitarist (famous sort, forget who tho) stated that if you aren't playing a fan fretted neck, then you aren't playing in tune. Though boastful in his comment, it is true.
Light said:
Actually, I do my own intonation because the guitar techs with the strobe tuners cannot get it right. I do it by ear. I have perfect pitch and no other way or any other tools will work for me. I once had a strat that drove me crazy. I took it to a great guitar guy with the strobe tuner. He tuned that thing for an hour. I said it was off. He and another tech looked at this guitar and finally found that the 1st fret was placed wrong. Every other position worked great. First position chords did not. They were both very surprised that I could hear it. The tuner was off like at the very lowest of the low resolution. I sold that guitar to a beginner who was happy with it. So, if you have perfect pitch, it is possible to do it.
mshilarious
Banned
acorec said:
You don't need perfect pitch, just really good relative pitch (perfect pitch is cool to have though). All tuning is relative anyway, since A hasn't always been 440Hz.
I must say that intonation issues should be tended to with the player AND his/her technique in mind.
The tech that certified me recounted a story in which the player sat with the now finished instrument and the 3rd string was still sharp in his single-note leads.
He told me he realized that this gentleman had built into his technique to compensate for an earlier problem with the instrument. To get the pitch correct or the the choking note out, he would specifically pluck and fret the 3rd string harder than the others. Isn't that weird?!
As for the Gibson issue, on almost every Gibson I've set, I've had to reverse the 3rd string saddle. My set-ups were flawless after I learned that.
The tech that certified me recounted a story in which the player sat with the now finished instrument and the 3rd string was still sharp in his single-note leads.
He told me he realized that this gentleman had built into his technique to compensate for an earlier problem with the instrument. To get the pitch correct or the the choking note out, he would specifically pluck and fret the 3rd string harder than the others. Isn't that weird?!
As for the Gibson issue, on almost every Gibson I've set, I've had to reverse the 3rd string saddle. My set-ups were flawless after I learned that.
I read somewhere that the average person can rarely distinguish less than a three cent variation in pitch, granted most musicians listen more clocely than the average person and can develope a "fine tuned ear," but most listeners are not as picky as we are. I guess what I'm getting at is, although precise intonation is great it is not always an absolute requirement. I do all of my own set up work, I've been doing it longer than a lot of techs have been alive so I've gotten pretty good at it from years of trial and error. I play mostly electric and one thing I've noticed that no one else has addressed is the fact that no matter how cloce the intonation is set on the guitar, if you plug into a different amp there will be a slight variation in the tonal reproduction and this will sometimes be sufficient to make a guitar sound off, anyone else ever notice this or is it just me and the crappy amps I've played through over the years?
I know how to do it, but for some reason I just don't. Probably 'cause I've only read about how to do it, but have never thought to practice it, instead jumping right into jamming. I tune by ear, and if I goof, it's only by a 1/2-step or less...either direction. For me, intonating my guitar = picking just the right set of strings. 
Matt
Matt
Dani Pace said:
I can play my Ibanez AG75TBS balls to the walls (guitar volume & tone settings at "11", and amp settings nearly at "11"), no problem. Plug into my Line6 Guitar POD 2.0, and I may as well give up on "shredding," for the amount of acoustic reverberation that is sent from below the humbuckers. Even my cheapie Realistic 10W combo amp don't give me the acoustic reverb. that my POD does. I kinda expected for there to be some acoustic issues, with the AG75 being a hollow bodied electric, but so far it's only shown up in the POD.
I've played the AG75 through my Squier BP-15 bass combo, my Vox T-25 bass combo, my Peavy TransTube 258 EFX combo and my Fender AmpCan...all without having to worry about acoustic reverb.
Now, my Squier Fat Telecaster really sings, through the POD 2.0, but the humbucker gets way too muddy, through either one of my bass combos.
And, that I was able to tell the tonal differences between a Fender (Mexican) Standard Telecaster, and a Fender U.S. Special Highway One Telecaster, without plugging either of them into an amp...I think I scared myself, a bit, there.
Matt
Armistice
Son of Yoda
Interesting point Ed Dixon - I once spent an hour restringing, intonating and generally setting up my new PRS because a friend was coming over to see it and play it for the first time. Sounded beautiful when I played it. My friend has a different playing style and a touch like a meataxe and it sounded absolutely crap when he played it. I presumed it had just gone out of tune and grabbed it back off him only to find it was still perfectly in tune...
He was just squeezing the hell out of it when trying chords. I was surprised at the difference it made.
He was just squeezing the hell out of it when trying chords. I was surprised at the difference it made.
My superior guitarist in a band I was in instructed me to have the intonation set on my Les Paul. I thought to myself, "Hey man.. I can save a few bucks and buy this book I saw in Musicians Friend on how to set up guitars!" My buddy told me to not even try it and I went and ordered the book anyway. I mean.. how hard could it be?
The book was clear and easy to understand.. the entire process was layed out through the pages and it looked like it couldn't get any easier than this. Well man.. I totally screwed my guitar all up. Strings were all different heights, I had screws falling out, bridge pieces falling on the floor.. rolling under the fridge..etc. Strings were all... high.. low..high low.. like a freaking washboard or somethin.
A few days later.... I gained the courage....
I walked into my local music store (The COOL music store where all the rockers hung out) and politely stated that my guitar has been sounding funny lately and I "think" I need my intonation or something set on it.
The guy in the guitar department calmly leaned back, flicked some hair out of his half closed eyes and said, "Sure man.. let's take a look at your axe."
I slowly opened the case and lifted the guitar on to the counter. Even before I rested the guitar on the counter he saw the bridge and goes, "Holy FUCK.. what the hell did you do to this thing?!" I said, "It's ok man.. I got the extra parts n springs n crap that flew all over the living room in my pocket."
He started laughing so hard that he began to choke on the pepsi he was drinkin. He goes, "You (*cough...*gag*) totally fucked this thing up man!" I looked at him sadly with the most sincere expression I could make and said, "No way EH, my friends 3 year old got in the case in did that man...swear to god man.. swear to god."
People started looking in my direction and began to wander over. Even the guy from the keyboard department came over to see what was going on. I tell ya man.. nothing is more humilating than having the dude from the keyboard department laughing at you. The fucking keyboard department guy, of all people.
I slowly walked out of the store, head hung low and tail between my legs. I gave my friend the money and had him pick my guitar up for me when it was done. I've never been so ashamed in all my life... and all because I tried to do the intonation on my own guitar.
//AdrianFly
The book was clear and easy to understand.. the entire process was layed out through the pages and it looked like it couldn't get any easier than this. Well man.. I totally screwed my guitar all up. Strings were all different heights, I had screws falling out, bridge pieces falling on the floor.. rolling under the fridge..etc. Strings were all... high.. low..high low.. like a freaking washboard or somethin.
A few days later.... I gained the courage....
I walked into my local music store (The COOL music store where all the rockers hung out) and politely stated that my guitar has been sounding funny lately and I "think" I need my intonation or something set on it.
The guy in the guitar department calmly leaned back, flicked some hair out of his half closed eyes and said, "Sure man.. let's take a look at your axe."
I slowly opened the case and lifted the guitar on to the counter. Even before I rested the guitar on the counter he saw the bridge and goes, "Holy FUCK.. what the hell did you do to this thing?!" I said, "It's ok man.. I got the extra parts n springs n crap that flew all over the living room in my pocket."
He started laughing so hard that he began to choke on the pepsi he was drinkin. He goes, "You (*cough...*gag*) totally fucked this thing up man!" I looked at him sadly with the most sincere expression I could make and said, "No way EH, my friends 3 year old got in the case in did that man...swear to god man.. swear to god."
People started looking in my direction and began to wander over. Even the guy from the keyboard department came over to see what was going on. I tell ya man.. nothing is more humilating than having the dude from the keyboard department laughing at you. The fucking keyboard department guy, of all people.
I slowly walked out of the store, head hung low and tail between my legs. I gave my friend the money and had him pick my guitar up for me when it was done. I've never been so ashamed in all my life... and all because I tried to do the intonation on my own guitar.
//AdrianFly
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I can Relate
Same thing happened to me, I bought an Epi G400, my first guitar. I didn't know what intoation was until I googled "tuning problems". I read several very clear and detailed articles on intonation and other tuning issues and solutions. In a nutshell I damaged the retaining wire and had to take the thing to a shop. At the shop several people came around to see what was up as I explained some bullshit story that I hoped would make me look less of a fool. "How much did you pay for this axe?" "You know that you screwed up your warrenty now that you messed with it right?" Sly looks to one another that I couldn't decipher and an all around unconfortable situation. I found no holes to jump into.
I did learn a lot about tuning though and the care one should have with their instruments.
Dan
Same thing happened to me, I bought an Epi G400, my first guitar. I didn't know what intoation was until I googled "tuning problems". I read several very clear and detailed articles on intonation and other tuning issues and solutions. In a nutshell I damaged the retaining wire and had to take the thing to a shop. At the shop several people came around to see what was up as I explained some bullshit story that I hoped would make me look less of a fool. "How much did you pay for this axe?" "You know that you screwed up your warrenty now that you messed with it right?" Sly looks to one another that I couldn't decipher and an all around unconfortable situation. I found no holes to jump into.
I did learn a lot about tuning though and the care one should have with their instruments.
Dan
Light
New member
DanielCer said:
As good of a reason not to work on your own guitar as any, because we know. We always know.
And ask yourself this; I do thousands of dollars of business with Gibson, with Fender, with Taylor, and tens of thousands of dollars with Martin every year. If I know you have done something which voids your warranty, and you ask me not to say anything, whose side am I on. The guy who thinks he doesn't need my services anyway, and who is asking me to lie for maybe a hundred dollars in the course of the year; or the company who wants me to be honest, and is giving me a major percentage of my yearly income? We (repair shops) have absolutely NO motivation to lie to the factory on issues like this, and we don't do it.
You try and do your own work, your warranty is voided. End of story.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
DanielCer said:
Why would you mess up your warranty for a botched intonation? The only thing I can think of is if you snap the truss rod or lose some parts. Any guitar company who would void a warranty because you intonated it would be not too trustworthy in my book.
I could take a new guitar to the best tech on this planet. Say he goes and adjusts the truss rod and it snaps instantly (has happened), if he is not an "authorized dealer" then the warrantee would be void? Look at the shitty setups that the guitar manuf's do. Sounds like if this is true, we should not accept a new guitar unless the guitar manf's pay for a proper setup.
Outlaws
New member
I didn't read all the posts....except Lights....but I have the Peterson Virtual Strobe tuner and love it. So much so that I have finally found a reason to drop a shitload of money on a real strobe tuner. Not now. But in the future I will. The virtual strobe was a massive step up over the old $50 Sabine tuner that I had before. I honestly cannot stress how much more fine the tuning is over a blinking light. More so than I though was possible.