Intonation Problem?

You have to ask yourself: are you better off on the same side of the door as we are or on the other side???
 
Ed Dixon said:
The one other key item, that only the player knows, is desired playing style and feel.
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You would be surprised at how untrue this is. I am not being cynical, nor dismissive of the individuality of peoples needs in a setup. It is simply that most players have very similar needs. On those occasions where they need something other than what we would consider "spec", they bring it back in and we work with them to get it exactly where they need it. This is something we do not charge for, nor does any other reputable shop. We understand that setup is a personal thing, and we make sure it is right for the individual player, but most people need the same thing, which is an optimal balance between low action, and buzzing when you play hard. What we would call spec. If the shop you go to does not do this for you, think about finding a different shop.

To be honest, though, the only people who want something other than a "spec" setup are people who play at an extremely high level. These are usually the guys who are getting paid for professional session work all day, and playing shows every night. These guys also NEVER try to do their own setups. They are well aware of the value of a professional setup. Most of these guys are in the shop at least once a month, making sure their guitars are perfect. They do NOT try to do their own setup work. These are also the kind of guys who come in for a complete refret every time they have even minimal fret wear. They feel it and it bothers them, where it does not bother most people. They play at a very different level from most of us.

Someone made mention of knowing how to do your own oil change before. I do not know how to do so, and would never try to do it myself. I am not a mechanic. I also do not bring it to Jiffy Lube, but instead bring it to my normal mechanic. One of the benefits of having a mechanic do my oil changes is that, while he is down there, he looks around and makes sure there are no other issues. I would not be able to do this, because even if I did my own oil changes, I would have no idea what else to look for. He does. He is also a regular customer of mine at my shop, for much the same reason. I understand the mechanics of a guitar, he understands the mechanics of a car. We each work on the things we know best.

If you have fun working on your guitar, or your car, then have fun. You have NO advantage, however, on either one, over a professional. They will do it better, and faster.

By the way, while we are on the topic of car repair, why is it that people who don't even blink their eye at giving their mechanic $85-100 an hour, complain bitterly about giving their guitar repair person $65-75 an hour. Our rate, right now, is $65. Our overhead is at least as high as my mechanics (I have talked to him about this), but somehow people expect me to do my work for less? We charge by the hour, end of story.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Mess with me all you want, but leave Gandhi alone. I do not put that quote up for anyone but me. I do not have it set as a signature or anything, because by typing it every time I post, I remind myself that I need to keep working. It is there to remind me that, even when I am scared of a situation, I need to do the right thing.

It is there for me, not you. Leave it alone.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
Mess with me all you want, but leave Gandhi alone.
It is there for me, not you. Leave it alone.
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Actually, I was messing with Hal. From what I have read, Gandhi had an incisive sense of humour. I suspect he may have laughed at mere words. Perhaps I am wrong, I did not know the man personally.

I apologise for any unintentional disrespect you might have inferred from my own sense of humour.
 
Thank you, and I apologize if I misunderstood your meaning.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Editor said:
Accord is not so hard to achieve :) Now...about my guitar :)
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As I said, if you want to do your own repair work, spend the thirty dollars to by a book by an expert.

The first thing we do when we hire a new employee is teach them to evaluate a guitar. It takes years for them to really get it down, but it takes about a year for them to get the basics down. It is impossible for anyone on the board to tell you what is wrong with your guitar, because we are not holding it in our hands. It takes just a few simple tools to evaluate. An 18-24 inch straight edge, a very accurate six inch ruler with at least 1/32 inch and preferably 1/64 inch, and a short straight edge which can be used to find high frets. That's it. Without having it in front of me, however, I can not possibly evaluate it. I am an expert, and if I can not evaluate it, neither can anyone else here. Get a book, and learn what to look for, then you can figure it out for yourself.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
As I said, if you want to do your own repair work, spend the thirty dollars to by a book by an expert.
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Yes, you did say that, a number of times. "Spend money ... let someone else do the work." Got it. Thank you. I am sorry I took up so much of your time. Now, from this point on, I will direct my attention to the other helpful members of this forum.

arcaxis said:
The overtone your hearing, is it a buzzing of sorts ?
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No, it is an actual second tone, flatter than the fretted one. Makes a very dissonant sound. It happens when I pick the string, even lightly, but not if I hammer on a note and/or slide to another fret. As I mentioned earlier, it is almost as if the string behind the fretted note was being amplified. (I wish I had more time...I will try to record the sound & post it here if that's possible to do)

It definitely sounds like an intonation problem but I did a pretty good job of setting that up (by my standards;)

Thanks for the input arc :)

Editor's note: I had another look at it today. The extra overtone is worse on all strings above the 12th fret and, now that you mentioned it arcaxis, there is a buzz quality to it. It is sounding more and more like fret buzz. Upon putting a straight edge on the neck, it appears to have a slight counter-bow to it (high around the 5th-7th frets) so my next experiment is to put a 1/4 turn counter-clockwise on the truss rod. This is not as simple as you may think since the adjustment nut is located at the neck end, not the headstock. I told you this was a cheap guitar ;)

Everyone, please stand back! Watch for flying splinters!
 
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Editor said:
Yes, you did say that, a number of times. "Spend money ... let someone else do the work." Got it. Thank you. I am sorry I took up so much of your time. Now, from this point on, I will direct my attention to the other helpful members of this forum.
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Telling you to buy a book is not at all the same thing as telling you to take it to a professional. A book is cheap, and will help you in all future repair projects. I understand that you don't have a lot of money. Neither do I.

This is the big problem with the internet. People seem to have gotten the idea that you should be able to get information for free. Frequently you can, you will almost never get all of the information you need from a website. I mean, can you really expect the people who know what they are doing to tell you how to do their job, and tell you for free no less.

You are asking us to evaluate your guitar. Without having it in my hands, I can't. Nobody else here is any better equipped than I am to do so. It is simply not possible to evaluate an instrument without looking at it. So get a book. Hell, they might even have something at the library. The truth is, however, there is not (to my knowledge) a site on the web with extensive information on setting up an electric guitar, which is what you need. If you had an acoustic, I already mentioned Frets.com, and while that has a great deal of information which is general, it does not help with the specifics of the electric guitar. There are, however, quite a few books out there, so get one. They are really cheap for what you get. Your other alternative is to get a number of people on a BBS saying, "I had a problem like that," and MAYBE one of them will be able to help you, but probably not. There are too many variables. If you want to learn how to do it yourself, you will need to get the information to do it right, or you will just be damning yourself to get it wrong.

I see more guitars in the average week than most people on this board see in a decade. I grew up, and work, in a shop which has, at this point, been doing professional quality repair work for more than thirty years, and we are one of the most highly respected repair shops in the country. We do more warranty work for Martin than almost anybody in the world, and are the local warranty center for ever manufacturer who has warranty centers. I am, according to any conceivable definition of the word, an expert. You ask for help, and I have given it (for free, no less). You are welcome to ignore it, but you will find that, more often than not, I know what I am talking about when it comes to guitar building and repair.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Editor said:
Editor's note: I had another look at it today. The extra overtone is worse on all strings above the 12th fret and, now that you mentioned it arcaxis, there is a buzz quality to it. It is sounding more and more like fret buzz. Upon putting a straight edge on the neck, it appears to have a slight counter-bow to it (high around the 5th-7th frets) so my next experiment is to put a 1/4 turn counter-clockwise on the truss rod. This is not as simple as you may think since the adjustment nut is located at the neck end, not the headstock. I told you this was a cheap guitar ;)

Everyone, please stand back! Watch for flying splinters!
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Frets will generally buzz for only a few reasons. Either there is a high fret, or they are worn, which can take a couple of forms. The most common one is little divots in the frets. These are quite obvious. If, after they have been filed away, there is more than half the original fret height left, then they can probably be dressed, if not, you need a refret. The other form of wear is for the frets to be flattened a great deal, which is uncommon, and is usually only a problem for guys who have a lot of vibrato, bend a lot, and play REALLY hard (all three, not just two of the above). Irregardless, if you want to try fret work yourself, Frank Ford has a great deal of information at Frets.com. I very strongly advise against doing fret work yourself, as it is REALLY difficult to do it right. I usually leave it to one of our repair guys (I build), as they do a lot more of it than I do. When I do it myself, it takes me hours. Our shop manager can dress the frets on a guitar in an hour and a half (not including the setup part). A refret includes a fret dress, plus removing and replacing the frets, so it obviously takes even longer. If your guitar is not worth doing a refret, then it is time to look at a new guitar, or at least a new neck.

By the way, having the truss rod adjustment at the body end is not a sign of a cheap guitar, though it is a pain in the ass. Many Fender licensed replacement necks have this. It is a lot of extra work to adjust, but it is not an inherently bad thing, nor is it a cost thing. Just a thing.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
i dunno, i agree Light's advice is very helpful because he really helped me with my Les Paul's broken headstock problem, gave me a good estimate, and that's basically what it was, and now she's fixed and fine...but about setup, the thing is, we've brought the Les Paul to many different people to get it setup, and every time someone else did it, we could not stand how it played..so i would set it up myself, and that's how my brother and I liked it...same with my strats. my '89 strat played PERFECTLY when i pulled it off the wall at GC, and the tech there told me "yeah you should really let me set this up, it'll play much better" but i looked at him like.."why, it plays amazing right now" i hooked it up to a tuner, intonation was perfect, and the action was amazingly perfect, it was MY guitar, exactly how I wanted it. and he was telling me I should get it set up, and he even plyaed it. i don't trust my guitar wtih other people, it's as simple as that. same thing with my drums, i hate when people get behind my set and start moving everything, just pet-peeves of mine. Light's advice is great, but I just believe setup is soemthing that should be done personally.
 
editor...
I did'nt mean to hijack your thread. That was never my intention. I just wanted to pose a question on a subject that has been bugging me. Again, I apologize.

Light....
I mean no disrespect to you either.
That said, How do you equate a 200$ or whatever price knockoff strat to your car? I would'nt pay someone to setup my guitar, nor would I pay someone to change the oil on my cars, BUT, I would pay someone to refret my guitar, or rebuild my transmission. I have'nt the tools to do either job here.

Setups and refrets are not interchangable, even remotely.
Nor is the labor involved.

My point is that some people would rather do things themselves, and while they may not be as expert as you, that does'nt make them incompetant. It does'nt mean that they will absolutely get it "wrong".

I've been teching going on 25 years now. I always try to show people how to do things like intonate and setup their own guitars. I try to get them so they can deal with relatively minor problems on their own, when I'm not available, like when their guitar falls off the stand at a show or whatever. Thats just the way I do things. Everything is not business for me. It's about helping people.

I do completely agree with you about not being able to diagnose editors problem, or anyone elses, without having the instrument in front of me. Thats pretty much impossible.


Peace.
 
MadMinute said:
editor...
I did'nt mean to hijack your thread. That was never my intention. I just wanted to pose a question on a subject that has been bugging me. Again, I apologize.
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NP Mad :) I had no idea such a simple question would generate this much controversy. It must be a simple question after all since I answered it myself. I have solved the intonation problem to my satisfaction--by using what I already know and adding the other suggestions I found here to the equation. I now have a guitar that I can play. That, after all, was my goal. Sure, the guitar could sound better but it could never be perfect ... somewhat like myself ;) C'est la vie. (such is life)

Your car analogy is great Mad. Using Light's way of thinking, no one would be on the road unless their vehicle was tuned like an Indy racer. Yes, there would be less pollution, fewer accidents, better gas mileage ... waitaminute ... maybe Light's on to something here ;)

Even so, if that were the case, I never would have had the opportunity to own that 1972 Triumph TR-6. It was never tuned properly but it sure was fun to take the top down and floor it on a country road once in a while!

All or nothing Light? Not for me. There's too much in between.

Now that that's taken care, I have an old, beatup amp that needs some work ... any ideas? ;) ;) ;)
 
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