Interesting Mic controversy

  • Thread starter Thread starter slobbermonster
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sunflute said:
The thread is like a good soap opera, we are now having discussions about cameras instead of microphones.
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When you think about it, there are lots of parallels between photography and sound recording.

Both are a representation of a sensory experience, not the original experience itself. In representing the original experience, each is transformed into a new experience, which can be considered along a spectrum from faithful reproduction to original art.

Both are currently in the throes of transition from analog to digital, with vehement supporters of each faction. Editing processes that once were difficult or impossible in the analog domain are now a piece of cake digitally. Recording onto analog media many would say still gives superior results that still can't quite be emulated digitally in the current state of the art.

Both use equipment that some say should be transparent to the end product, and others say should color the end product to various degrees, from cutting edge avant guard to retro or "lo-fi."

I'm sure there are many others, but in the end, as Harvey notes above, it is the ability/talent/genius of the user of the equipment and processes that determines the quality of the end result, far more than the quality of the equipment used.
 
I can relate to the entire Chineese manufacturing scenario from the viewpoint of my trade. I'm a machinist.

Comparing China to Japan with all of the merchandise coming out of there is like comparing China to Germany. China ain't there yet, but anything's possible. People have to remember that workers in China are earning around 10 cents a day, whereas a watermelon in Japan costs 80 bucks. Maybe I have the numbers wrong, but the difference in scale exists, and for a good reason.

I own 3 Chineese verniers. I own one Mitutoyo vernier, made in Japan. Is there really a difference in quality? Yes, absolutely. There's also a big difference in price. Both types of vernier do exactly the same thing, but the Mitutoyo stuff doesn't vary from one item to the next. Mitutoyo is known all over the world for being one of the very best in state of the art measuring equipment of all types.

We have a lathe at work that has Kent USA written on it in big letters. It also has Made in China written on it in small letters. Does it run as well as Cincinatti machines? Not a freakin' chance. The gear train's made out of cheap steel. None of the steel in this machine is properly hardened. The elderly German dude that ran this thing for 6 years has done some truly amazing work on this machine regardless of where it came from. Other guys can't hold a candle to this guy even on the best machine in the world.

Some of the Chinese verniers are good too, but it's hit and miss.

Now if someone wanted to truly copy German microphone design, they'd have to spend a lot more time hanging out at Ikea. The Gefell UM 900 looks like a coffee bean grinder or something, but it's actually a $5,000.00 mikrofoner, and it's more than window dressing. I think Blue might have discovered that concept.

Getting back to the original idea of this thread, I think that if Kent USA wanted to include a fancy set of handles for the Chinese lathe and then charge 60k for it instead of 10k, the consumer would be getting ripped off. And the consumer would know in very short order because we're engineers, not burger flippers.

Somewhere there's probably a guy running a 10k Chineese lathe that's pretty damn close to a 60k model from a different country, so I agree that generalizations are useless.


Sorry for the rant, but that's my take on it.


sl
 
Maybe we could find some things to agree on here, because I think in essence most people are saying some variations along these lines:

1. A skilled operator is essential. S/he finds a way to the job to a high standard using the tools available at hand, whether they be cheap or not.

2. It doesn't make sense to over-generalise about the quality of *all* Chinese microphones and the ethics of 'buying Chinese' as there are so many variants/factors/different ways of doing business. Maybe 5 years ago you could, but not now.

3. I think most of us feel uneasy about a company that would purchase a Chinese manufactured item, make several modifications and sell it for 1000% mark up. (No aspersions against Telefunken, nothing's been proven).

4. Some of us resent claims about inexpensive microphones that are exaggerated. We understand quite well the law of diminshing returns, and honestly there are many of us really need that final 10% to enjoy our own recordings.

It just occurred that probably everyone will disagree with what I wrote. Well I tried :)
 
Let's make it very clear, I own a number of expensive microphones like Neumann and these are superior to any Chinese mic.

But like Harvey said in this thread, some Chinese mics come really very close and unless you can afford them, there's no need to buy a $4K+ mic when very few people can hear the difference.

The difference between an MXL V77S and a Neumann U87 can only be heard when recording difficult instruments like violin for example. On vocals there's hardly any difference that could be qualified as 'significant''.

A couple of inches in placement makes more difference in sound.
 
Summary

krs said:
Maybe we could find some things to agree on here, because I think in essence most people are saying some variations along these lines:

1. A skilled operator is essential. S/he finds a way to the job to a high standard using the tools available at hand, whether they be cheap or not.

2. It doesn't make sense to over-generalise about the quality of *all* Chinese microphones and the ethics of 'buying Chinese' as there are so many variants/factors/different ways of doing business. Maybe 5 years ago you could, but not now.

3. I think most of us feel uneasy about a company that would purchase a Chinese manufactured item, make several modifications and sell it for 1000% mark up. (No aspersions against Telefunken, nothing's been proven).

4. Some of us resent claims about inexpensive microphones that are exaggerated. We understand quite well the law of diminshing returns, and honestly there are many of us really need that final 10% to enjoy our own recordings.

It just occurred that probably everyone will disagree with what I wrote. Well I tried :)
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Very well said, I think this post pretty much summarizes the essence of what everybody is trying so hard to agree on in this thread.

Peace
 
I agree with KRS on all but his final point. My opinion is that there is NO straight-line correlation between 'quality' and price. For example, there isn't a single thing that the SM57 does that I don't prefer done by an E835. The Sennheiser is cheaper ... so once again, you simply have to use your ears. If spending a lot is the only way to get the sound you need, then you have to spend that much. But spending 90% more does not guarantee you that extra 10% ... only a mic that does 10% subjectively better for your needs does.
 
Snow Lizard, you illustrate the point well. Anyone can go down to Harbor Freight or similar and see a vast array of typical Chinese quality in the tools that are there. If you grab a hammer from them for $2 it will still drive a nail for a while but that technology is very simple, it's merely a chunk of steel on a stick. NOW when you grab some of the cheap Chinese power tools, they fall apart quite rapidly. Heck I went to the Home Depot store and bought a garden valve (made in China), took it home and of course it leaked like crazy, I took it apart and it was quite obvious the problem was the machining, the manufacture of it. AND all the valves were of that sub par quality.

Back to microphones, I've recorded identical takes with my chinese mics and my good mics and have had trained and untrained ears give me their opinions, 98% of people pick the good mics over the Chinese as sounding "better". Both trained and untrained, doesn't matter who listens. Does the good stuff sound thousands of dollars better?? Well I would have to say yes. Can you still make good/decent recordings and music with cheap Chinese mics? Absolutely! We find ways of working around limitations. Heck I have several cheap chinese and russian mics. The big difference for me is when I put up a Chinese mic it's very iffy if I'll use it. it's always a maybe maybe not and often even if I record with it I'm not always liking the sound of the track whereas IF I put up a something not built in China 99 times out of 100 it will be the right mic. Maybe it's not a Chinese issue, maybe it's just certain Chinese manufacturers and importers that put out hyped crap. Or maybe the American designers who commision the Chinese to build for them aren't near as good as they think they are and they give the Chinese poor designs to work with. Who knows maybe the next mic genious of the decade is over there as we speak dreaming up something incredible.

As far as Telefunken, it' simply not right to decieve people regardless of price.
This is from the M-16 listing on their website. "Telefunken products are meticulously handcrafted in the USA." That, to me is simply lying about the mic.

We should all give Alan cudos for being upfront about where SP mics come from. No matter what opinions we have about his mics.
 
slobbermonster said:
Back to microphones, I've recorded identical takes with my chinese mics and my good mics and have had trained and untrained ears give me their opinions, 98% of people pick the good mics over the Chinese as sounding "better". Both trained and untrained, doesn't matter who listens. Does the good stuff sound thousands of dollars better?? Well I would have to say yes. Can you still make good/decent recordings and music with cheap Chinese mics? Absolutely! We find ways of working around limitations. Heck I have several cheap chinese and russian mics. The big difference for me is when I put up a Chinese mic it's very iffy if I'll use it. it's always a maybe maybe not and often even if I record with it I'm not always liking the sound of the track whereas IF I put up a something not built in China 99 times out of 100 it will be the right mic. Maybe it's not a Chinese issue, maybe it's just certain Chinese manufacturers and importers that put out hyped crap. Or maybe the American designers who commision the Chinese to build for them aren't near as good as they think they are and they give the Chinese poor designs to work with. Who knows maybe the next mic genious of the decade is over there as we speak dreaming up something incredible.
We should all give Alan cudos for being upfront about where SP mics come from. No matter what opinions we have about his mics.
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...98% pick the non-Chinese mics?...99 times out of 100 the non-Chinese mic will be the right mic?...hey man, why do you even bother?...sounds like more of the same generalizations about "Chinese" product again...in my experience, the MXL V77 gets as much action in our studio as our Rode NTK or our AT 4050...we don't have any Neumanns or other high end stuff, but I agree entirely with Harvey about viability of certain Chinese mics...in the right hands they are very capable pieces at very affordable pricing...not to mention, the customer service that I have received from both MXL and SP was outstanding!...

...it is important to note that a quality mic pre will greatly enhance the "useablity" of these Chinese mics, as it will any microphone...I have found that investing more in a quality pre (for use with any of the better Chinese or moderately priced Rodes, ATs, Shures, etc...) is more beneficial than investing in a high-end mic and running it thru a bargain priced preamp...I don't know what Harvey Gerst is using for his front end, but I'm sure it's probably high quality stuff ("what are you using for pres, Harvey?)...

...and by the way, in case you haven't noticed, the Koreans are building cars that are giving the Japanese fits...only a few years ago, the Korean cars were being laughed at...Hyundai is about to put a dent in the Toyota/Honda dynasty...10 Year/100,000 Mile Warranty?...that's kinda like MXL's 3 Year Warranty...show's some serious confidence in the product's build quality...
 
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slobbermonster said:
Back to microphones, I've recorded identical takes with my chinese mics and my good mics and have had trained and untrained ears give me their opinions, 98% of people pick the good mics over the Chinese as sounding "better". Both trained and untrained, doesn't matter who listens. Does the good stuff sound thousands of dollars better?? Well I would have to say yes. Can you still make good/decent recordings and music with cheap Chinese mics? Absolutely! We find ways of working around limitations. Heck I have several cheap chinese and russian mics. The big difference for me is when I put up a Chinese mic it's very iffy if I'll use it. it's always a maybe maybe not and often even if I record with it I'm not always liking the sound of the track whereas IF I put up a something not built in China 99 times out of 100 it will be the right mic.
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Specifically which "Chinese" and "not built in China" mics are we talking about here? While I don't doubt your take on your own experience, I don't think it's wise to draw any conclusions at all from a statement as vague as the one above without knowing the specific mics involved - and even then the conclusion would only be valid for those specific mics (and subjective). No disrespect intended, but one of the most frustrating aspects of this board is the tossing around of blanket statements which end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
 
kidvybes said:
I don't know what Harvey Gerst is using for his front end, but I'm sure it's probably high quality stuff ("what are you using for pres, Harvey?)
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For the most part, we just use the board preamps, Topaz in Studio B, or MCI 556D in Studio A. The Topas has been replaced with a Tascam DM24 as of last week and the Tascam board pres sound fine.

For critical vocals or detailed stuff, we have a choice of the Millenia Media SST-1 Origin, the Great River MP-2H, the MP2-NV, the RNP, a Drawmer 1960, a P1, and a few others.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
For critical vocals or detailed stuff, we have a choice of the Millenia Media SST-1 Origin, the Great River MP-2H, the MP2-NV, the RNP, a Drawmer 1960, a P1, and a few others.
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...now you're talkin'!....great selection...those will make the mics shine!...thanks for the details Harvey...

...and Harvey...let me thank you for your earnest evaluation of these products...a seasoned pro like yourself giving us novices serious input about products we can afford is invaluable...much like Roger Nichols (multi-Grammy winner)
http://www.rogernichols.com
giving us the heads-up on the Rane MS1B mic pre as his pre of choice on the Steely Dan live album...proof that there are some real "diamonds-in-the-rough" out there at very affordable pricing...heck, an MXL V69M or V77S through a Rane MS1B is a $350-450. investment that yeilds some real serious performance...throw in an RNC for another $175. and you've got a sweet front end!...Thanks
for all your time and much appreciated advice...
 
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I just thought of something :) I'm a bit of a wine expert.

The difference between a GREAT bottle and a pedestrian bottle is subtle. It takes years of training (tasting) to discern the difference. Once you have developed this taste the subtle differences become more obvious.

HAving said that - great wines are only great in their application. For eg, what meal are you matching it with, has it been aged properly, does the glass have detergent residue....etc. In many instances a great wine is a real bad choice. Moreover, a great wine can taste horrible to the untrained or undeveloped taste. Then their is QC - wines go bad and 90% of the people can't even tell. More often than not a great wine is purchased to impress and usually drunk young when a cheaper wine would have actually tasted better.

Lets move onto mics. IMO unless the setting is right a great mic can be a waste of time. I believe there are very few people who know how to get the best out of a great mic and even fewer who know if the mic is working to it's potential. I think cheaper mics can be a better choice in many applications. I think more often than not expensive mics are purchased to impress - and understandable so.
 
kats said:
I Moreover, a great wine can taste horrible to the untrained or undeveloped taste.
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If you have to be continously told what is great to see it, rather than going on what you would experience for yourself without the forced-opinion "practice," I simply don't see how that makes something great.
You make it sound like you've essentially been conditioned and nurtured to respond positively to people shoving dog crap down your throat. I don't see how that is "taste," despite the number of people in the high-end wine clique that would agree.

In the case of mics, what sounds great is great. Not what a bunch of 80-year-old snobby engineers who can't even hear anymore tells people is the only great gear out there.
 
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bleyrad said:
In the case of mics, what sounds great is great. Not what a bunch of 80-year-old snobby engineers who can't even hear anymore tells people is the only great gear out there.
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Hey, watch it. I just turned 68, not 80. :mad:

All the rest of it is accurate.
 
Heh! Sorry, I wasn't referring to you, the age bit was irrelevant. I just meant closed-minded people - a trait that often does come with age!
 
noisedude,

I was referring to everything in the signal path, and in particular to condenser mics, which I use almost exclusively (I do classical, and absolutely zero rock).

In this case, where colourless is DESIRABLE, bigger price tag in general equates to the sound I'm looking for - natural.

Natural IMHO can be expensive. (I realise this does not apply to the average HR.com user).

BTW Sunflute I ran into your recordings a few months ago, I think you must be one of the best flautists living today. Your playing is stunning, your sound reminds me of Galway (I love Galway). Congrats on your achievements.

Best, Kirk
 
Krs - Ah, ok, I get you. Yes I would agree in that case that to get low-noise and transparent mics does seem to be much more closely linked to price. DPA and all those don't come cheap! It does seem to be easier to get a mic with a good sound than a mic with almost none of its own.

As a flautist, I will have to look up Sunflute's stuff - do you have a link?
 
slobbermonster said:
Snow Lizard, you illustrate the point well. Anyone can go down to Harbor Freight or similar and see a vast array of typical Chinese quality in the tools that are there. If you grab a hammer from them for $2 it will still drive a nail for a while but that technology is very simple, it's merely a chunk of steel on a stick. NOW when you grab some of the cheap Chinese power tools, they fall apart quite rapidly. Heck I went to the Home Depot store and bought a garden valve (made in China), took it home and of course it leaked like crazy, I took it apart and it was quite obvious the problem was the machining, the manufacture of it. AND all the valves were of that sub par quality.

Back to microphones, I've recorded identical takes with my chinese mics and my good mics and have had trained and untrained ears give me their opinions, 98% of people pick the good mics over the Chinese as sounding "better". Both trained and untrained, doesn't matter who listens. Does the good stuff sound thousands of dollars better?? Well I would have to say yes. Can you still make good/decent recordings and music with cheap Chinese mics? Absolutely! We find ways of working around limitations. Heck I have several cheap chinese and russian mics. The big difference for me is when I put up a Chinese mic it's very iffy if I'll use it. it's always a maybe maybe not and often even if I record with it I'm not always liking the sound of the track whereas IF I put up a something not built in China 99 times out of 100 it will be the right mic. Maybe it's not a Chinese issue, maybe it's just certain Chinese manufacturers and importers that put out hyped crap. Or maybe the American designers who commision the Chinese to build for them aren't near as good as they think they are and they give the Chinese poor designs to work with. Who knows maybe the next mic genious of the decade is over there as we speak dreaming up something incredible.

As far as Telefunken, it' simply not right to decieve people regardless of price.
This is from the M-16 listing on their website. "Telefunken products are meticulously handcrafted in the USA." That, to me is simply lying about the mic.

We should all give Alan cudos for being upfront about where SP mics come from. No matter what opinions we have about his mics.
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Whilst I disagree with most of what you said, I think that's a really good post. It's better when we can debate this without the rhetoric. Your line of thinking is totally valid ... I have my opinion, but I guess as time pans out we will find out whether the Chinese manufacturers are currently a limiting factor, and whether they will improve.

I have to say that my T3 is impressing me a lot ... which says to me that there is nothing inherently wrong with either the designers or the makers, but that either cut corners or personal taste are the most likely answers as to the sound of some Chinese-madse mics. So many people like the SP B1 and MXL V67 and ADK Vienna/Hamburg that it can't just be cheapness of manufacture, because these are some of the cheapest you can get.

So for me, it leaves only one option - to take each piece on its merit, and to judge for myself what is 'good' and what is not. Which all but the xenophobically anti-Chinese must surely agree with?
 
bleyrad said:
Heh! Sorry, I wasn't referring to you, the age bit was irrelevant. I just meant closed-minded people - a trait that often does come with age!
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What is closed mindedness to one may simply be wisdom to another.
 
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