Interesting info for Delta 1010 users...

hi robot,

I can see that you really did your homework. THere is basically nothing I can say except that even as I would like to see these improvements in the delta series, every card and manufacturer has its short comings. As I said before, we should petition m-audio to make these changes.

Do you agree that if these changes are made, the delta 1010 will be the best card out there?

The other thing I wanted to say was that the delta 1010 was the 1st sample on the lucid VS delta 1010 comparison. THis is another testament to its extremely good sound quality.


The next logical thing to happen would be for an m-audio representative to reply to this thread and answer the very valid questions that you have.
 
Do you think the delta 1010 woudl still be going for $500 new if all of these things worked perfectly. There is a reason they are cheaper, 1)The R&D needed is less then say a Lucid. 2)They have less people working on the drivers. This is a compromise.

Robot, maybe you are an instance of the "pro can't get by with prosumer gear" problem.
 
kristian said:
Do you think the delta 1010 woudl still be going for $500 new if all of these things worked perfectly. There is a reason they are cheaper, 1)The R&D needed is less then say a Lucid. 2)They have less people working on the drivers. This is a compromise.

Robot, maybe you are an instance of the "pro can't get by with prosumer gear" problem.
Click to expand...

That's totally funny! Remember this isn't marketed as prosumer, but competing with products $10-20000 in price. At the time of my purchase, the drivers, etc. weren't supposed to be problematic. I chose this over the Digi001, for obvious reasons.

I wish I only paid $500. I bought it about when it hit stores, awhile after it's press release. I did get a great discount.

Cyan: I'm so stunned that the first example in the MP3 is the Delta. I can not say a thing but "hot damn". It's the same thing I said when I first heard the Lucids, so maybe there should be an ADC/DAC shootout cd. I will mention that I listened to that on a Delta 1010. Interesting.

My problems have now been placed in my retailer's hands. Since Midiman didn't reply to a single email, going to my retailer was my only choice. Hopefully it will all be resolved tomorrow. I should note that the person I spoke with was very concerned about my problems having sold a Delta 1010 recently. I let him know it wasn't life or death, but anyone who uses their Delta like I do will definately want to know.

Keep on truckin,

Robot
 
Last time I asked M-audio to respond on this board, they did so the same day. All you gotta do is inform them that there is talk, and a widespread problem, they'll come and peek.
 
So this problem peaked my interest. Asked around a bit and found out the skinny.

Turns out, there is actually nothing wrong with the 1010's converters, or the way the card or it's breakout box are designed. In fact, the problem that is described will happen on just about ANY OP amp that is switchable between balanced/unbalanced. Generally speaking, switching between -10 and +4 will change whether the OP will be unbalanced (-10) or balanced (+4). The same OP amp is used, but the none inverted signal at the output will just get grounded out to make it unbalanced. That is what the "switch" does (before any go and say that the operating voltage is changed via "software" and is not a switch, remember that is relatively easy to use a digital control to cause a physical thing to happen. In "software" switching, the physical circuit is indeed changed, it just used a brain and probably a relay to do so....)

The story goes that an unbalanced OP amp "inverts" the signal coming in to it at it's output! Wow eh? This is done to control "feedback". Feedback is where the output of the OP can be fed back INTO the OP to control volume. The OP amp supposedly has an operating range that is likes to work in, and by applying a little bit of it's output back into it's input, but out of phase, or more specifically, partially out of phase. This obviously will reduce the volume at it's input to cause the OP amp to work in the range it likes to work in. I am sure it is much more complicated than that, and I am no bench tech, but my source for this information is and he condensed it all down to something you could talk about after a few beers in ya....:)

So anyway, a balanced OP doesn't have the same reversed phase issue at it's output because it is a balanced circuit. Word has it that the relative phase between a unbalanced and balanced OP amp will not be by any means 180 degrees out of phase, only partially out of phase to each other.

When I presented the question to this guy of "What would happen if you used a balanced and unbalanced signal together and summed them to mono?" this guy described almost exactly what was described in that guys test, so appearently, this is not some "new" issue in the world of audio.

My buddy also said that there are "none inverting" unbalanced OP amps. He claims they are more expensive and designing circuitry around them is a bit more difficult. So, with the 1010 selling around $500 US, it would stand to figure that they would go for the cheapest way to make the box/card work.

So, there you have it. I sure wish skippy was around to shed a bit more light on this subject. He is good at explaining this stuff, and his information is always dead on.

skippy!!! Where are you?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Ed
 
thanks a lot Sonusman for that information.

So robot, there,you have it. THis problem exists with most cards so switching to a different card will most likely not fix this problem.

now that Sonusman has shed some light on this,Its interesting but fully logical how this problem can exist
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kristian
Do you think the delta 1010 woudl still be going for $500 new if all of these things worked perfectly. There is a reason they are cheaper, 1)The R&D needed is less then say a Lucid. 2)They have less people working on the drivers. This is a compromise.

Robot, maybe you are an instance of the "pro can't get by with prosumer gear" problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kristian, Very true
If these things were fixed, m-audio would be justiied in asking three times the price, and people would buy it.
I believe they only have 55 employees, so they are doing a gang good job, especially if you consider that they were the fastest growing company in the recording industry in 2000. They provide great value


----------------------
originially posted by robot.

That's totally funny! Remember this isn't marketed as prosumer, but competing with products $10-20000 in price. At the time of my purchase, the drivers, etc. weren't supposed to be problematic. I chose this over the Digi001, for obvious reasons.
-----

Robot, that not correct. They are not competing with products in the 10-20k market. They say , and its true, that the technology that they provide used to cost 10-20k just a while ago. Big difference there.


---------
I wish I only paid $500. I bought it about when it hit stores, awhile after it's press release. I did get a great discount.
--------

I paid $700 for mine. Those guys let me upgrade to delta logic, gigasampler and unity for only $35. WOW. at $700 it would still be great value
----------


Cyan: I'm so stunned that the first example in the MP3 is the Delta. I can not say a thing but "hot damn". It's the same thing I said when I first heard the Lucids, so maybe there should be an ADC/DAC shootout cd. I will mention that I listened to that on a Delta 1010. Interesting.
------------------------

Yep its stunning isnt it that a sound card can sound virtually identical to an external AD that kills the apogee , which is basically industry standard.

About the delta 1010 DA, I know a reviewer who said that it was difficult to distinguish the DA of the 1010 from a $3000 unit. I know another person who listened on the 1010 and could pick uot the lucid. I think it was Kristian :D
----------------

My problems have now been placed in my retailer's hands. Since Midiman didn't reply to a single email, going to my retailer was my only choice. Hopefully it will all be resolved tomorrow. I should note that the person I spoke with was very concerned about my problems having sold a Delta 1010 recently. I let him know it wasn't life or death, but anyone who uses their Delta like I do will definately want to know.

Keep on truckin,


Robot

----------

hey robot, I am in the market for a LD condenser, which ones do you recommend in the $200-$700 range?
thanks. I would like to hear a pro's point of view
 
I loose

Hello,

My Guitar Center representative contancted Midiman and recieved the usuall "We don't know that problem, change PCI slots, get an Intel, get the latest drivers." They even pretended to give him a direct tech support number to satiate him, however before he read it to me I asked if it was "xxx-xxxx", and he stated "Unfortunately, yes."

So that's it.

Thanks for the info Sonusman. I did know that OpAmps have some funky procedures from reading Analog Devices Data Sheets, but the "built in" phase inversion is new. Pretty interesting, although also disappointing.

I'm either gonna clean this up and Ebay it for $400, or use it as an ADC DAC testbed.

Cyan this thing could sound like God Almighty and I still wouldn't use it after this.

I'll keep the webpage up for consumer awareness, it may be nice to know. Or not.

http://www.geocities.com/ghostofrobotpresent/

Thanks to you all,

one sad robot
 
Re: I loose

Robot said:
Thanks for the info Sonusman. I did know that OpAmps have some funky procedures from reading Analog Devices Data Sheets, but the "built in" phase inversion is new. Pretty interesting, although also disappointing.
Click to expand...

That is just the way they are supposed to work. Disappointing or not, most of then Phase reverse at their output so that there is a way to turn them up or down (if there is that option) or to make them work in the best range of gain.

I would still be very suspect about using two different operating levels, and trying to use unbalanced/balanced gear "together" on the same track that will be summed mono. To me, this is very "weird" engineering practice, and obviously not a good idea to do. Then the dude talks about "normalizing" the tracks.....:rolleyes:

I have been trying to stay away from "gear opinions" for the most part, but I must state AGAIN that I am not very impressed with the 1010. I don't care how "good" of a deal this card is, it just seems to have a bunch of weird issues surrounding it. It is all the fucking morons who expect the world for the price of an island that make cards like this come to the market. Of course they are not going to ship the damn thing with everything working up to snuff with "pro" gear, it is far FROM "pro" gear. People continuing to support companies that ship garbage like keeps garbage like that ON the market. Pay the extra bucks and get gear with a little history, from companies that have a history. By paying those few extra bucks, you usually get a better product out of the box, better custormer support, and you are rewarding companies to continue making excellent products that fill needs very well, even if these products cost a "bit" more than one would "like to spend".

I wait for products to be on the market for a while before buying them. MAudio products are not on my short list, not my medium/long list of products because I have heard too many problems with them, and still really haven't heard a conversion quality that was all that special.

Oh screw it....This is like preaching to bikers or something....

Ed
 
Re: Re: I loose

Nice rant guy.

Thanks for dissing my "engineering practices" and calling me a "f*ck*ng moron".

I work in Post Production. I deal with unbalanced and balanced -10 and +4 all the live long day. I HAVE to have MONO compatability.

Totally rude behaviour. Nice tips tho.

-robot
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top