INTERESTING! Delta Users (WDM vs ASIO)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Slackmaster2K
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Slackmaster2K

Slackmaster2K

Gone
I don't know if this applies to all soundcards, or just the delta series, but here goes: Use ASIO drivers in n-Track instead of WDM for minimum track lag.

I did some testing tonight and I'll be releasing the results as soon as I can. Basically my findings were this: no matter what you set your DMA settings to in the Delta Control Panel, you will always get a consistant track lag in n-Track of about 2ms if you use ASIO. Of course with ASIO, n-Track uses ASIO buffers so n-Track buffer settings are just inherited from the Delta Control Panel.

On the other hand, if you use WDM drivers, track lag varies considerably depending on the DMA settings in the Delta Control Panel. The lowest lag I could get using 64 samples was 3ms. The highest lag I saw using 2048 samples was over 49ms! Interestingly enough, these DMA settings don't seem to have any performance impact, and your buffer settings in n-Track alone will dictate your success. Therefore, you can leave your DMA settings in the Delta Control Panel at 64 samples, and then dial in WHATEVER buffer settings you want in n-Track, and still only see 3ms of track lag in the resulting wave file, AND be able to work just fine.

In short:

The best lag I could get with WDM was 3ms.
The best lag I could get with ASIO was 2ms.
ASIO lag is always consistant, and your buffer settings in the Delta Control Panel will setup ASIO for all of your ASIO applications, making life easier. WDM lag varies greatly as you adjust the Delta Control Panel DMA settings, and you will have to constantly adjust buffer settings as you move from ASIO applications to n-Track, if you choose to use WDM in n-Track.

I will be posting a detailed discussion of this eventually, complete with cute little pictures and the whole works. I've never fully understood the single-DMA-setting in the Delta Control Panel, and I've never fully trusted n-Track to work correctly. It will be interesting to see what comes of this information.

Slackmaster 2000
 
When you talk about 'track lag', are you saying that the newly recorded wave file actualy lags behind previously recorded ones?

I did an experiment feeding one of my delta1010 outputs back into the input to measure lag - what I found is that when recording with 96K sample rate with maximum dma buffer size - set from the control panel - i'd get an 8 msec lag - which is basicly unusable. But using the ASIO drivers, I get a pretty much un measurable lag - not more than 1msec. I tried using the WDM drivers with Sonar, and get similar results. I think maybe there's a problem with the drivers.
 
bdemenil, that's exactly what I'm talking about! I did my experiments in the exact same manner. I'm going to finalize something and see what people think. If you had similar results in sonar, then I'd also guess either delta drivers, or WDM itself. Hopefully we'll find out.

I say track "lag" because I don't think latency is the correct term. Latency is the time it takes for a signal to be processed before you hear it. Lag is a track physically being out of time.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Thanks dude! I still have to put together my test results as well. We need to get to the bottom of this. I'm really irritated because ASIO in n-Track is very poorly implemented compared to WDM, but WDM is obviously flawed.

I'm on Win2k BTW, maybe it's an NT thing. We should find somebody on 9x. Also we should have somebody with a different soundcard try this.

Let's collect some info and hit m-Audio with it.

Slackmaster 2000
 
I get better performance out of my c-port using ASIO drivers than all other driver types.This is in all the software I use,n-Track,Logic,Cubase etc.
 
I have a 24 track test project that I use to make sure my system is in good working order. The tracks are all 24bit/44khz, and I've got 2 TrueVerbs, 6 L1's, n-Track Echo, delay, n-Track EQ on 8 tracks, and a prosoniq's northpole filter...plus a bunch of volume and aux send automation. It's a good sounding mix too because I didn't record the tracks :)

Anyhow, this project basically maxes out my current system, but it does playback and is mixable. Prior to my "accidentally" installing n-Track 3.1, I could work using both WDM and ASIO. ASIO was always clunkier than WDM...when I track to a new location it stutters...it clicks when i stop...i get dropouts every so often....lots of crackling when adjusting effect parameters...nothing that makes it unusable, but definately annoying. With WDM everything was *considerably* smoother.

After upgrading to n-Track 3.1, my test project wouldn't play back in either WDM or ASIO very well. It took me a whole lot of messing around but finally I got it playing back ok in WDM, but in ASIO it just falls apart, worse than I mentioned above.

Since you get better ASIO performance with your c-port, perhaps the problem then is related to the Delta ASIO drivers?

I use ASIO in fruity loops and wavelab, but neither of these apps really stresses the system too much. Personally, I'd prefer to work strictly in ASIO because it's more widely support, doesn't suffer from the problem we're discussing in this thread, and the Delta Control Panel only has one buffer setting, so using WDM with super low buffers makes it impossible to use an ASIO application at the same time. Fart!

Slackmaster 2000
 
Has anyone sent all this stuff to M-audio and asked about it yet? Is it correctable by dragging it over and lining it up? Is it caused only by the Delta drivers, or even just the current version? Has anyone tried this test with other WDM soundcards besides the Delta?
Post this stuff in a common area, like computers, that way everyone will see it. I dont use N-Track, therefore never peruse this forum.
I will send all these links and some questions to M-audio if no one has yet. I just now got mine, too, and this is quite disturbing since it never came up until I buy one. And of course, I use Sonar 2.0 with WDM.
A question though... this "lag" is happening when you feed it back into itself. If we are recording everything into the computer from a sound source, every track should have the same lag on it, and therefore be just fine. Right?
I'll try to look here again, but try to make a post in the computers forum where more people can see it and comment.
 
damn...

slack the comp i ordered is almost IDENTICAL to yours...cept i will have Delta 44 and XPHome...

defaintely can somebody email delta?
 
Everyone, please post to the other thread listed above in the Computers and Soundcards forum.
 
Dude, I cannot even get my 1010 WDM drivers to record! Screw the lag! Naturally I use the Asio and it's all peachy.
 
On recording with WDM drivers - you might have to set to your recording settings to 24bit - left justified. 16 bit should work as well. Are you using the latest version?
 
I tried using ASIO drivers (N-Track 3.05/Delta 44/Win2K w/APCI) and I got all kinds of crackling and popping when playing back stuff recorded on my old 98 installation. I've been using WDM drivers ever since without any problems, although I haven't tried looking at lag specifically. I usually record 2 tracks together to start (vocals/guitar) and I then overdub while listening back to the recorded tracks. Not sure what my buffer settings are.
 
Gordone,

I usually have to have my buffers very high to get crackle-free playing with ASIO. Also, try ntrack 3.1.2 - I think the early 3.X versions were pretty unstable. I haven't tried 3.1.3 yet.

Try the test described by Slackmaster2K and myself. The type of work you're describing will definitely be negatively impacted by the problem we're reporting. I did several recording sessions before i noticed it.

Post your results to the other thread though :

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=59192
 
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