Insulation behind dry wall?

[DM60]

I have hired a licensed/bonded contractor. He was referred by my Realtor. We have been in communication about what needs to be done. The 5k is not set in stone. I have a bit more to work with, but I'd like to keep in in that range, don't want to blow thru all my rainy day savings.

I'm scrapping the 2x layer of drywall. As upstairs noises will be minimal. I can put the animals out, and my wife doesn't make that much noise.

Also I'm not that concerned with resale at this time, in the future if I need to I'll put up drywall.

So drywall on the ceiling. The walls will be framed in 2x6's with 4" OC703 and cloth covering, and 4" furring strips on the face of the 2x6's. I'll put clouds above mixing area and corner bass traps and diffusion, mid range treatment as necessary.

Wow, that actually sounds pretty good, anxious to hear what the experts have to say. But it seems like that would work very well.

 

[chronicle]

Two warnings on contractors. Unless you find a contractor that KNOWS how to detail construction for isolation, you are risking total failure. The key is DOCUMENTATION of DETAILS and specifications of Materials. In that regard, without knowing WHAT it is you are building, you can't tell the contractor what you want..EXACTLY. This is easily rectified by gaining knowledge related to the subject at hand, and the best resource you can get is Rod Gervais book..Home Recording Studios, Build it like the Pro's.
Home Recording Studio: Build It Like the Pros: Rod Gervais: 9781435457171: Amazon.com: Books

Once you understand, then you can lay out how you want things to be on paper.

And that brings up a second warning. Unless you get a contractor to sign some kind of performance contract, whereby if the finished product doesn't do what it is supposed to do, you have no recourse if they fuck it up. I'm certainly no expert but I believe there is a section in the book that talks about this.
And if ANYONE knows about this..Rod does, as he is a PRO studio designer, AND a structural engineer as well. I believe John has a book out as well, and is also one of the best Pro studio designers around the world.

 

[chronicle]

I'm scrapping the 2x layer of drywall.

So drywall on the ceiling.

ummm..ok..but what about this:

The walls will be framed in 2x6's with 4" OC703 and cloth covering, and 4" furring strips on the face of the 2x6's. .

Wait..wait..let's go back to the beginning here...

I'm going to be gutting my basement and refinishing it.

Ok, we really need to define something here. And please, I'm just trying to help you BEFORE you do anything that can actually be a problem later. This is why....

First off, you don't need "furring strips", especially 4", if you are stapling fabric, just staple it to the studs, plates and trim with 1.5" strips as required. Second, I have a question. Since you haven't provided a floor plan, or any other visual aids, we are left guessing what your real intent here is, and as such makes it difficult to really provide relevant suggestions.

Here is the reason I ask. If you are planning on GUTTING any existing drywall on exterior walls

What it sounds like is you are using what's known as an INSIDE OUT WALL scenario, whereby the insulation is exposed, albeit covered with fabric. I highly doubt you are building exterior walls as this is an existing structure, so this is why I ask. It has to do with TWO things.

1. Since you say you are "gutting" the basement, to what extent are you GUTTING? Apparently, because you said you are planning on using 703 between studs, and covered with fabric, this leaves the reader thinking you are removing drywall from the existing EXTERIOR walls. Can you clarify that please? Reason is, should you do this, you actually are destroying any benefit of a TWO LEAF SYSTEM. In essence, this means these walls will TRANSMIT sound easier than if you didn't remove the drywall, comprende? Here's the deal. A TWO LEAF WALL ASSEMBLY is the BEST Transmission LOSS assembly you can have. Depending on what is on each LEAF, these systems are rated in TRANSMISSION LOSS.. In essence, having two leaves provides what's known as a MAM system, which means...MASS-AIR-MASS. Take one leaf of mass away, and it destroys the system.

2. Assuming you are not building exterior walls, this only leaves PARTITION WALLS. And as such, if you are still planning on lining these in exposed 703, you need to know something. These are what's known as an Inside-Out PARTITION wall, which is actually TWO walls. That is, IF you want to keep a TWO LEAF construction. Which is why we need to ask a bunch of questions. For instance,...you say you are building 2x6 walls. Why? In reality, to keep a MAM system intact, for all practical purposes, these are usually a DOUBLE wall. See my illustration. And as such, there are also many things to keep in mind when building these. Fire Stopping for one. Rods book shows others too. However, for all practical purposes, given your limited isolation needs, in your situation, I'd suggest simply building a simple partition wall lined with typical(and cheaper) batt insulation, and hanging broadband absorption where required. After all, right now, we don't even know what your monitoring layout is going to look like in regards to orientation of exterior/interior partition walls.

I'll put clouds above mixing area and corner bass traps and diffusion, mid range treatment as necessary

Well, in regards to mid absorption, this is what I was referring to. Why build Inside-Outside walls which are WAY more expensive(703 ain't cheap vs batt insulation for COMPLETE WALLS nor is the availability of 4" 703) if all you need is First Reflection Point absorption on those particular walls, which we don't even know where they are right now...see?

Also I'm not that concerned with resale at this time, in the future if I need to I'll put up drywall.

You need to decide on other issues first. Like I was saying.

Does it matter much what kind of insulation I use in the ceiling?

Now that you've decided to drywall it, then typical batt insulation will work fine. HOWEVER, before you install the insulation, I would advise you to CAULK every single penetration in the floor above. Not to mention a hundred other things to be considered PRIOR to building ANYTHING. Hence my suggestion of buying Rods book.

The fact is..you really need to do some research first. If you finally get moved in and can measure the space, come back with a drawing or two and we can help you much more then.

 

[ecc83]

This is mostly by way of a "bump" so I can follow but one thing comes to this old brain. Insurance.

I presume you currently have contents insurance? Now, you mentioned "unknowns" on the property? Might be an idea to check this out with your insurers?
Naturally you have inventory, serial numbers and photographs!

Dave.

 

[GamblersChoice]

I spent a few extra bucks to relocate the two small water lines, so I was not concerned with future maintenance. Take that into consideration, but I think you addressed that as not a problem. Instead of two layers of drywall. I used one layer of celotex fiberboard and then a layer of drywall. The celotex sold here as "sound board", but it might just be sold as a exterior board now. It is a fiber content that had a slight "R" value to it in addition to the sound deadening characteristics. Run the seams opposite the drywall, as in, if you run the 4 x 8 length wise for the dry wall, run the fiberboard 8 x 4. Also, start from the left for one layer, the right for the second, this way the seams are staggered. If there will be new walls, I used a 3/4 inch rubber strip 3 inches wide under the bottom plate and over the top plate to isolate the wall from the floor and ceiling, in order to stop the transmission of vibration. I also used the double layer on both sides of the walls, drywall, fiberboard, stud, fiberboard, drywall, with fiberglass batts in between the studs. Then I took the cut left over pieces of the fiberboard, covered them with cloth for appearance, and hung them with spacers between them and the drywall at staggered intervals to break up reflected sound inside the room. By the way, the sound board celotex material was about $8 per sheet, the same as the cost of a drywall sheet, so there was no additional cost.

The interruption of the vibrations is the key to sound proofing. Since you will be attaching the ceiling materials directly to the floor joists, the vibrations will go directly through the ceiling to the floor above, so the best you can hope for is sound deadening, you will never achieve sound "proofing". Sound proofing would require a total "room within a room" concept, which would get very expensive. This is another reason for choosing the fiberboard over a second layer of drywall, using a second type of material to reduce resonance and separate the two spaces.

Later
Albert

 

[Johnny Don't!]

Such great info here. Chronicle really knows his stuff, as does the guy from Jakarta (sorry, can't recall his username).

That being said, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned using a dead air space for soundproofing. From what I recall learning about the physics of sound, it travels most efficiently through solids, then liquids, then gases. So building an insulated wall over a wall with airspace behind it would be the most effective for soundproofing, at least where physics is concerned. I personally have little experience with building soundproofed rooms myself, but nearly all the pro rooms I work in here in Chicago all have floating floors and ceilings over/under dead airspace with walls built like the one I described above. But if space is an issue, then this type of design might not be as good of an option for you.

 

[ecc83]

Such great info here. Chronicle really knows his stuff, as does the guy from Jakarta (sorry, can't recall his username).

That being said, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned using a dead air space for soundproofing. From what I recall learning about the physics of sound, it travels most efficiently through solids, then liquids, then gases. So building an insulated wall over a wall with airspace behind it would be the most effective for soundproofing, at least where physics is concerned. I personally have little experience with building soundproofed rooms myself, but nearly all the pro rooms I work in here in Chicago all have floating floors and ceilings over/under dead airspace with walls built like the one I described above. But if space is an issue, then this type of design might not be as good of an option for you.

It is true that the solid/air interface is an inefficient one but some sound IS launched because the solid, e.g. plasterboard, vibrates. Incorporating an absorbent such as rockwool attenuates the sound further by friction, turning the energy into heat. Then, an air "space" implies a second wall and thus some sound will reflect from that and be re entered, stuffing the space gives the material a second bite of the cherry.

An open window is a "perfect" absorber because sound leaves ideally never to return.

But my knowledge in this area is very, very limited.

Dave.

 

[fuzzsniffvoyage]

Two warnings on contractors. Unless you find a contractor that KNOWS how to detail construction for isolation, you are risking total failure. The key is DOCUMENTATION of DETAILS and specifications of Materials. In that regard, without knowing WHAT it is you are building, you can't tell the contractor what you want..EXACTLY. This is easily rectified by gaining knowledge related to the subject at hand, and the best resource you can get is Rod Gervais book..Home Recording Studios, Build it like the Pro's.
Home Recording Studio: Build It Like the Pros: Rod Gervais: 9781435457171: Amazon.com: Books

Once you understand, then you can lay out how you want things to be on paper.

And that brings up a second warning. Unless you get a contractor to sign some kind of performance contract, whereby if the finished product doesn't do what it is supposed to do, you have no recourse if they fuck it up. I'm certainly no expert but I believe there is a section in the book that talks about this.
And if ANYONE knows about this..Rod does, as he is a PRO studio designer, AND a structural engineer as well. I believe John has a book out as well, and is also one of the best Pro studio designers around the world.

Thanks for the info. I ordered the book, and another one on acoustics, off Amazon, should arrive Wed.

My contractor is up to the challenge of doing something a bit different than usual. And will work with me 100%. Before he starts we'll go over dimensions and materials.

He's a guitar player and a retired rail road worker, so we get along great.

I close in 2 weeks. After I get in there I'll get some exact measurements and take some pics and get some visuals for y'all.

 

[jhbrandt]

Fuzz,

Be sure to draw up the plans for your builder and double-check the construction technique you plan to use. - Solid mass, single partitions or double with air space (MAM). Single partitions are good up to about 50 - 55 tops and do not give insulation against flanking transmission. READ Rod's book before you do anything.
If you need my help, send me an email.

Cheers,
John

 

[chronicle]

READ Rod's book before you do anything.

Hey dood...I was under the impression you have a book out too. I haven't seen any one comment about it anywhere though. Do you?

 

[fuzzsniffvoyage]

Thanks John. I just may take you up on your offer. And the contractor and I will be getting together to get the details done. There will be drawings and materials to be used on the contract.

I have a feeling I might be going over my 5k budget. I guess I'll be dipping into my equipment fund. I've been saving for some Avatone Mix Cubes, the Pre Sonus monitor manager, and a Beyerdynamic headphones. A better preamp and a few mic's, and a low watt amp, more guitars & basses, but that'll all be useless with out good acoustics....

 

[jhbrandt]

Hey dood...I was under the impression you have a book out too. I haven't seen any one comment about it anywhere though. Do you?

I do! It's listed on my site. I'm working on a revision that will include more stuff, but it will probably be a while before I can finish the revision.
It's called "Build Your Own Home Studio". - My clients get a free copy.
Cheers,
John

 

[Chili]

I do! It's listed on my site. I'm working on a revision that will include more stuff, but it will probably be a while before I can finish the revision.
It's called "Build Your Own Home Studio". - My clients get a free copy.
Cheers,
John

Does it cover cube shaped rooms and 53hz bulges???

(I know you are not suppose to promote your own products or services, but other members can do it for you!! That's the difference between spam and opinion )

 

[jhbrandt]

Does it cover cube shaped rooms and 53hz bulges???

(I know you are not suppose to promote your own products or services, but other members can do it for you!! That's the difference between spam and opinion )

Yes, in fact, it does!.. It tells you not to do that.. LOL!

Actually, that subject is covered in most of my posts across the forums that tell you: You will need a lot of deep trapping. IF necessary, you may need to 'target' that frequency with strategically placed pressure absorbers.. I much prefer limp membrane traps to rigid, high 'Q', panel traps. Much care must be taken when applying this sort of measure, similar to surgically 'EQing' a track. You can easily cut out what you don't want to cut out.

Cheers,
John

 

[fuzzsniffvoyage]

Okay, just got back from vacation, got my mail and the books I order from Amazon.

Acoustic Design for the Home Studio by Mitch Gallagher, and

Home Recording Studio: Build it like the Pros by Rod Gervais.

So far very good info in here.

I think I paid about $35 for both books. A little advice to others considering a studio build, get a couple books, not necessarily these, but get something with pictures and explains the science and math behind acoustics. (Which acoustics is the science of sound, I didn't know that.)

One of the 1st things that caught my eye was Mitch Gallagers books says that studio foam isn't as bad as some of these forums claim. Auralex is not as good as OC 703 or safe and sound, but very close for their dimensions.

I'll keep reading.

Any way. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

 

[jhbrandt]

Hi Fuzz,

Rod Gervais is a friend of mine.. Mitch, I don't know. The thing about foam is that it is usually used in 2" thick pieces... AND the pieces are often cut into wedges or shapes that actually take away the volume of the foam, making it actually less effective. The sculpting of the foam adds points for absorption testing by providing more surface area, but when you get down to lower frequencies, the efficiency drops.

Rod will tell you how to build a 'real studio'. Read that one first. Mitch's will help you 'make do' and 'make it work'.

Cheers,
John

 

[fuzzsniffvoyage]

Closed on the house yesterday. I'm meeting my contractor in an hour. When I get back, I'll post some precise measurements and some pics.

Been reading those books. I'm just as confused or more than ever, quite a few options.

 

[Chili]

Closed on the house yesterday.

Bigtime Congrats to ya!! Love the feeling of closing on a new house. God knows how many times I've done it....

 

[chronicle]

Bigtime Congrats to ya!! Love the feeling of closing on a new house. God knows how many times I've done it....

Yeah, a big congrats here too.

Although I've only done it once, and I'm sure you understand already, what it gives you in relationship to your studio interests, is you are now in control of the destiny of your dreams...at least as long as you pay the bank. Hahahahahahaha! Just kidding. Hope you keep posting.


Mitch, I don't know. The thing about foam is that it is usually used in 2" thick pieces... AND the pieces are often cut into wedges or shapes that actually take away the volume of the foam, making it actually less effective. The sculpting of the foam adds points for absorption testing by providing more surface area, but when you get down to lower frequencies, the efficiency drops.

 

[fuzzsniffvoyage]

I didn't have time to measure, but here's a few pics: