Installing a Patch Bay

  • Thread starter Thread starter midi
  • Start date Start date
M

midi

New member
I’m planning to install a patch bay system in my hobby home studio. I make electronic music (synths/samplers/drum machines/effects units), and am not really dealing with low level signals like mics or unamplified guitars. I’ve done some research, but this is the first time I’ve done it, so while part of me is saying just bight the bullet, the other half wants to make sure I get a quality result before investing the money and time!

I considered a balanced versus unbalanced system. Given most of my gear is unbalanced, -10db stuff, I’m thinking I will stick to unbalanced. From what I understand, this shouldn’t make any significant difference because my cable runs are not long – typical is 0.5meter/2feet to 3meters/10 feet, with a few longer cables, the longest being two 6meters/20feet cables. Also while, not surprisingly, I want great sound quality, it’s not quiet as crucial as it might be if I were doing commercial audio work. I am on the right path here?

I’ll be getting two patch bays, and the Hosa PHB-265 seems good (see page 22 of the Hosa catalogue on their website). I like that Behringer has the switches to change the normalling, but because the switches are on the top surface, I think it would be a big hassle trying to slide the patch bay out of the rack to make adjustments. The Hosa is about twice the price, but considering the switches are on the front panel it seems worth it. Has anyone got opinions on the Hosa PHB-265? Are there other models I should consider? I will doing a bit of gear changing so switching would be really useful.

Now to cabling… Cable is something I really don’t know much about. I looked through the Jaycar catalogue (I’m in Australia) and CAT. NO. WB1508 seems good (www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=WB1508&keywords=WB1508&form=KEYWORD). They have another audio cable that is considerably cheaper (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=WB1500&keywords=wb-1500&form=KEYWORD) , but I wonder if the quality is any good. Would the WB1508 be a good choice? What other suppliers might I consider in Australia?

In terms of plugs I’m looking at plastic Jaycar ones. RCAs are $0.52 each versus $1.55 for metal, and 1/4in plugs are $0.80 for plastic versus $1.45 for metal. In terms of aesthetics, I’m not concerned about the plastic plugs, and I don’t think I need the durability of metal plugs (no live use). Apart from the look and durability, are there any differences between plastic and metal plugs?

Finally, any other things I should consider?
 
Buy a balance bay... don't buy the behringer model with switches... and metal plugs are better
 
Thanks for your reply, but it is so breif it's a bit critpic.

My mixer - Yamaha n8 - has balanced inputs, but is there any point in buying a balanced bay given my instruments don't have balanced outputs? I think that would mean buying DI boxes, and given I've got someting like 30 outputs, well buying so many DI boxes would be a bit wack.

The n8 manual says this:
Microphone: Use balanced lines.
Short line-level runs: Unbalanced lines are fine.
Long line-level runs: Use balanced lines.

I would think at least my cables at 3meters/10 feet or under could be considered short.

Why would you suggest I don't buy Behringer? (I wasn't planning to anyway).

Why do you say I should buy metal plugs? Apart from durability (and depending on your tates) the look, is there any difference?
 
midi said:
Thanks for your reply, but it is so breif it's a bit critpic.
Click to expand...
But I answered your questions young grasshopper... to seek knowledge, you must SEARCH for it...
 
Alright

MOFO Pro said:
Buy a balance bay...
Click to expand...
Balanced bays cost nearly the same as unbalanced, support unbalances patching nearly seamlessly, without limiting you to ubalanced operation

MOFO Pro said:
don't buy the behringer model with switches...
Click to expand...
I didn't say don't buy behringer (although I never buy behringer :rolleyes:) I said never buy the behringer with switches, they break, and they're unnessesary... so let me restate it... never buy patch bays with switchs... you're just paying for more points of failure

MOFO Pro said:
and metal plugs are better
Click to expand...
Better shielding and durability, generally better built... and they're not plastic... and oh yeah, they're better
 
MOFO Pro,
I'm not such a young grasshopper anymore, I'm in my thirties! I've been making music for ages, and I have good knowledge with synths and MIDI, but my audio needs have always been pretty straight forward. I'm finding this patch bay stuff daunting!!

I looked at my gear and the only item I have with balanced connections is my mixer. And I can't see many balanced purchases, if any, in the future. There's no benefit in running unbalanced equipment in to a balanced bay, over an unbalanced one. The signal will not become balanced until it reaches the patch bay and the cables from the patch bay to the mixer are short, so there's not much advantage in having those balanced. The only way a balanced patch bay would be an advantage is if you had the instrument plugged in a close by DI box. I easily have 20 outputs and even if I buy stereo DIs, that's 10 DI boxes which would just seem crazy. (Am I understanding what a DI box does here properly...?).

How do most synth freaks do it, weird it's something I've never thought about before. There's people with a lot more synths out there than me. Do they have banks of DIs, perhaps in rack units?

Can any one recommend any good books or websites on this kind of stuff. I don't want something for total noobs, but something that goes in to a fair bit of detail.
 
Ok, so some web research, and yes indeed there are 6 and 8 input rack mount DI units out there. I'm assuming sound modules and effects in the rack do not need to be DI'ed, (my mixer sits on top of the rack) due to the short cable run? If so, I could get away with 2 x 8 input units, plus a stereo DI for the organ on the other side of the room. But yikes, that’s going to up my expenses somewhat!

So what brand/model of patch bay are people out there using?
 
I use the Behringer ones with switches. Hasn't broken yet. Patchbay snobs!
 
I was inferring (in I guess a way too round about manner) that you should use the search feature (at the top of this page) to find comments in earlier posts on this forum. All of these questions have been discussed in great length, then you'd get the benefits of a number of different opinions.

If you want unbalance bays, then by all means save the $3.00 and put that towards the stack of DIs that you don't need... (effects, synths, and samplers generally operate on line level, not instrument level)

And get the plastic connectors while your at it...

Yeah and I can still remember (just barely, on one of my "good" days) when thirty felt old...

Now... what was I talking about? who are you? didn't we f%#@ at woodstock?
 
um, ok. LoL, entertaining thread!

if I can add another viewpoint:

- the traditional useful patch bay (there are many makes that have these) has no switches, is balanced, and supports various configs by letting you unscrew each bay card individually, flip it around and/or over and screw it back in. that decides if it's normalled, half normalled etc. I use them, they're great, yes it's a pain sometimes without switches, but we all use them and they work fine. not a big deal. cheap too (like $40 used generally). well built too.

- get balanced, if you have something balanced then the patch bay won't unbalance it which would suck. for two examples, should they ever come up, I'm sure there are many more examples: behringer composer - works unbalanced and balanced, it's totally undocumented that it sounds like ass unbalanced (muffled, no highs), balanced it sounds great. there are often two circuits, one for balanced, one for unbalanced, but sometimes only one balanced circuit that is compromised for unbalanced connections. it can degrade the sound. another example - EH 12ay7 stomp-box-shaped pure tube high plate voltage mic preamp (I know you don't use mics, just an example). claims to work unbalanced. guess what? it doesn't. unbalanced it will hum like hell. only run it balanced.

so you don't want the patchbay to be the point that unbalances something for you should everything else work fine and need to be balanced. you will probably add gear over time - what if that becomes the limiting factor? spend literally $5 extra now and get balanced.

- patch bays rock but they're also pains to setup and you'll set it up 50 times until you're sort of happy with it left alone :-). just warning ya...

- your cable idea is fine, again don't limit to unbalanced patch bay cables preferably but at least if you use unbalanced for now you can upgrade the cable and connectors later on. nice to see you're prepared to build your own cables - a true engineer at heart. smart person. they'll be better and cheaper.

- I have heard nothing terribly bad about those berry patch bays with switches by the way, but they're def not the norm. most people use the type I described.

cheers!
Don
 
by the way, I'm 40. wasn't at woodstock but was conceived that summer.... LoL

maybe mofo's my dad?
 
midi said:
...There's no benefit in running unbalanced equipment in to a balanced bay, over an unbalanced one. The signal will not become balanced until it reaches the patch bay...
Click to expand...

Perhaps you misunderstand something here. The patchbay will not cause the signal to become balanced and you do not need to balance any of the inputs or outputs just to satisfy the patchbay. No DI's will be needed.

If the incoming line is unbalanced, a balanced patchbay will still pass it through as unbalanced. So, in a nutshell, a balanced patchbay can handle both inputs, but an unbalanced batchbay can only handle unbalanced inputs. That's why everyone wants to recommend the balanced ones. Because then you have the luxury of using it any way you want in the future.
 
MOFO Pro said:
I was inferring (in I guess a way too round about manner) that you should use the search feature (at the top of this page) to find comments in earlier posts on this forum.
Click to expand...

Minor correction here: You weren't inferring; you were implying.

Carry on. :)
 
MOFO Pro:
If you want unbalance bays, then by all means save the $3.00 and put that towards the stack of DIs that you don't need... (effects, synths, and samplers generally operate on line level, not instrument level)
Click to expand...

The purpose of a DI box is not just to amplify mics and guitars. One of the main functions is to convert unbalanced signals to balanced. There is plenty of info out there about using DIs on keyboards to make the signal balanced. Although I get the impression this could be largely marketing. I'm certainly interested in opinions and info about how much difference it makes on short cable runs - like is the difference even audible.

dkelley:
patch bays rock but they're also pains to setup and you'll set it up 50 times until you're sort of happy with it left alone :-). just warning ya...
Click to expand...

That reassures me. I had envisioned setting up a near perfect patch system first go, but now I view it more as a work in progress, which certainly helps.

In summary, I'll go for the balanced bays without switches, metal plugs, and I'll look at some other cable for a point of comparison if nothing else. I'm still looking around for models of patch bays. I’m gonna buy enough cable and plugs to make a few cords, do some tests, and if happy go ahead and buy in bulk.
 
midi said:
MOFO Pro:

The purpose of a DI box is not just to amplify mics and guitars. One of the main functions is to convert unbalanced signals to balanced.
Click to expand...
Not in your described application...
midi said:
I'm certainly interested in opinions and info about how much difference it makes on short cable runs - like is the difference even audible.
Click to expand...
Not in your described application
 
Dylan... um... well how much of your studio do I get in your will if I change my name?


DADDY????
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top