Inexperienced, need help recording my band

[sprynmr]

Hello all! This is my first post here at this forum, and I am looking for a great deal of advice.

I am a sax player in a jam/rock band, and we are trying to make a decent recording to help us get gigs and start the ball rolling. I know we aren't going to get a great sound until we buy some studio time, but for now we can only afford to try things ourselves.

I have already received some help from people over at www.recordingwebsite.com, but I think there may be more brains to pick here.

For reference, <a href="http://www.recordingwebsite.com/Board/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=6759" target="_blank">here</a> is the thread over there.

So essentially we have a lead guitarist (who sometimes plays electric, sometimes plays acoustic,) a lead singer who also plays acoustic guitar, a saxophonist, a drummer, and a bass player.

For practicing, usually the acoustic guitars, vocals, and sax mics go through the mixer and out the PA, and the electric guitar and bass use their own amps. We don't mic the drummer for practice obviously, cause they are stinkin loud.

So we want to make a nice lil recording. We have made several attempts, some of which turned out 'ok,' but I need to make them better.

If you want to check out the recordings so far, you can get them <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/sprynmr/filesharing/FileSharing15.html">here</a> in mp3 format.

So we are trying to take the output of the mixer (Mackie CR1604 pre VLZ) via the main outs to the computer to make the recording. We are running the PA through the headphones jack, and soloing the instruments on the mackie that we actually need to hear through the PA.

So we already have the vocals, acoustic guitar, and sax mics running through the mackie, the hard part is adding in the electric guitar and bass and drums.

We got best results so far by putting the direct outs of the guitar and bass amps into the mackie, but not letting them play over the PA. So therefor we only have them on the recording.

We have 4 dynamic stick mics for the drums, but still haven't been able to figure out the best setup for these, and have had trouble getting the levels right. We also don't solo these on the mixer so they don't come back through the PA.

I really need every piece of general setup advice you could muster for getting a good recording out of this setup. I realize its not ideal, and normally you don't have PA's and amps playing back towards the band when you are recording... but we can't really afford to create a very elaborate setup.

In listening to the recordings we've done so far, should we keep trying this way and just tweak things? Many people at the other forum suggested just using 2 omnidirectional mics and booming the entire band... but it just seems to me I should be able to get a better sound with control over everything individually.

What is your opinion? If you really do suggest just using the 2 mic boom setup... what mics? Studio Projects B1?

Should I feed the recorder (computer) like I'm doing, through the Main Outs and the PA through the headphones jack, and then solo all the instruments I actually need to hear out of the PA and leave the other ones un-soloed since I already hear them plenty well and only need them in the main mix.

Or should I try the setup involving using the aux channels to drive the recording?

My computer sound card doesn't like anything higher than unity so I need to make SURE that it won't be.

If I am feeding the recording through the mixer, and need to make sure its no louder than unity when we are all playing, what is the best way to go about setting up levels?

What's the order of adjustment? Gain->Individual channel faders (keeping them below unity)->Main faders(lowering them just enough to make sure the additive sum of all the volume isn't eclipsing unity?

Any advice at all you can think of, or places to point people learning how to record their band.

And how the heck do I mic the stinkin drums? How do I go about setting the levels for drums? It seems to behave differently than everything else.

Thanks so much in advance everyone, I realize some of these questions may be a bit elementary or have obvious answers.

~Bob

P.S. I was also toying with the idea of getting one of those CD-R recorders that can record the sessions straight to the cdr without a computer, and then I could deal with the computer part later. Thoughts?

 

[TexRoadkill]

A lot of questions there. Maybe some helpfull soul will have the time to give you a detailed response. In the meantime try searching for posts on:

"inserts"

"gain staging"

"drum mic"

"phase"

If the object is just to have a demo to show club owners I would just stick up some mics and record a real gig at the best club you can. If you want to make good recordings it's going to take a lot of time and study and the effort to go from complete shit to sorta crappy is pretty huge in the beginning. Going from complete shit to great is a looooooong haul.

It seems like you are trying to do the entire band at once and that also makes it more difficult. It sounds like you don't have any real reference monitors and that also raises the difficulty considerably.

 

[chessrock]

For someone just starting out, like yourselves, I would recommend that you buy, borrow or rent an all-in-one portable multitrack recorder. Something along the lines of a Roland VS-880 or similar.

They tend to be easier to learn with, as they are designed around one thing: recording. They're fairly intuitive, and most come with very easy-to-follow manuals, etc. If you can't learn on something like that, then you should stay away from recording altogether.

Dealing with computers right now might be an extra frustration you don't need. In my opinion, it's the hardest thing to master right off the bat.

What you should do is focus on drums first -- record them first, then "overdub" or layer each subsequent track on top of that, one at a time, untill you've got the entire song down. Then mix it from there. As far as drum recording goes, make it as easy as possible on yourself -- pick up a Behringer ecm8000 for $35 and stick it right on top of your drummer's head. Seriously, just get it in as close as possible to the set without getting in your drummer's way too much. Tell him to take it easy on the cymbals and snare, but really lay in to the kick.

That should give you a good enough drum sound for now, untill you figure out what the heck you're doing.

 

[sprynmr]

Thanks for the replies guys,

It seems like you are trying to do the entire band at once and that also makes it more difficult. It sounds like you don't have any real reference monitors and that also raises the difficulty considerably.

Yea we have been doing that. How do you go about overdubbing to make sure things sync up? I mean... how can the drummer know where he is without the rest of the band? Do you record the guitar or something and then give that to him with headphones? Do you have the whole band play but just record the drums?

Dealing with computers right now might be an extra frustration you don't need. In my opinion, it's the hardest thing to master right off the bat.

I am pretty much an expert in the way of computers, so that's not so much of a problem... but I will look into a multitrack recorder.

And yea we need to get some monitors, but then don't you run into the same problem of hearing those through the mics while you are playing?

So do you think we should just give the stereo pair recording technique a shot, or continue with all our individual micing? (That is, until we do something like get a multitrack recorder.)

Thanks again.
~Bob

 

[chessrock]

Do you have the whole band play but just record the drums?

That's a good idea. But there are no set rules -- just whatever works and whatever you feel comfortable with. A good idea might be to have the entire band play, but just record the drums (like you mentioned) -- having everyone plug their instruments directly to your mixer. That way, the drummer can hear everyone else, but the sound of the drums will still be isolated, as he will only be hearing you on his headphones.

I am pretty much an expert in the way of computers, so that's not so much of a problem...

If that's the case, then I envy you. Seriously, I'll trade tips with you all day if you want so long as you can help me out on the computer end of things when I have questions. As much as you may know about computers in general, keep in mind you're going to have to familiarize yourself with things like sound cards, word clocks, sample rates and bit-depth, dithering and noise shaping, a/d conversion, latency, DSPs, VST, DirectX, USB and Firewire Interfaces, optimization for audio, etc. etc.

And yea we need to get some monitors, but then don't you run into the same problem of hearing those through the mics while you are playing?

You should be tracking with headphones so as to avoid the issues you mention. The monitors you will use for playback and mixing.

So do you think we should just give the stereo pair recording technique a shot, or continue with all our individual micing?

It would probably be easier for now, but it probably won't give you as good of a sound. Why don't you do this:

Use the stereo recording thing for now.

When you get something you're happy with, use that as your reference track, and record your drummer playing along with that. Then layer all the other instruments and so on untill you get a multitrack version you're happy with. If it winds up sounding like shit, then you still have the original stereo track you did. And if they both sound like shit, at least it was a learning experience.

 

[sprynmr]

Ok Thanks man! Sounds good. I'll let you guys know what comes up.


As far as computers are concerned... your right I am going to have to learn a lot about the audio end of things, though I already know pieces here and there from messing around with Sound Edit II my whole life. Still I don't know a lot of the terms and techniques etc.

I think you can consider yourself an expert at computers not once you know everything there is.. but when you've learned enough that you now know 'how to learn.' That's the most important thing I've come away with from my Media Arts major. New versions of programs or entire new programs come out every few months, and you have to stay on top of those things in the media arts world if you want to make money. So you need to know how to learn things REAL fast. And that ends up benefitting you everywhere... not just computers.

Thanks a lot for your help chessrock. I'll be around from now on, so feel free to ask me computer stuff you think I might know, and maybe I'll throw some of my huge amount of recording questions at ya.

~Bob

 

[Dani Pace]

Why not record a live gig? For a demo to present to club owners/managers, this gives them a better idea of how you sound on stage. A four track with good mics in a club with good acoustics can produce a pretty good demo for this purpose. Try to arrange a time when the club is closed if you don't want any audience noise or invete lots of friends who will scream and applaud on cue for effect if you like. The live recording can easily be edited and put on CD for easy presentation.