Important MOTU 896 questions, please try to answer for sake of humanity

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ambi

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Ok, so heres my Contraversies!
I was originally planning on getting a mixing board, such as the mackie 1604 or the soundcraft m12, and getting a delta 1010. Then i had a good long look at the MOTU 896, and a good long talk with the manager of the local long and mcquade store. I realized i really don't need the mixer, because i won't be recording live stuff, this is just home studio kinda stuff. And with the motu, you have good preamps, as good or better than the mackie boards, and its all in one, so its cleaner, less signal loss from a smaller chain. and its firewire, so , fast connection. But i have many questions, and confusions about the motu. (also portable)

So the motu is a sound card, but external, and hooks up through firewire? So all your sound processing, and sound output, and everything comes through the motu?

Stereo inputs... so i have turntables and a mixer, or a mini disk player, or a tape deck, and i want to record them onto my computer. The motu has 8 mono xlr inputs with preamps, or 8 mono 1/4' inputs (balanced/unbalanced? does it make a difference), so how do i get a stereo signal in? With my soundblaster i would just get a 1/8' male to male cord, plug it from the output of the mini disk and into the soundblaster, and get a stereo recording. Or an rca - 1/8' from the turntables or mixer , then into the soundblaster. So how would i do that with the motu?

now the other way around, i want to record sound from my computer onto mini disk or tape, how do i get the stereo signal out from the motu into a tape deck or mini disk? It only has xlr outputs, i guess i could get a cable thats xlr - 1/4', then an adapter thats a female 1/4' - rca, but thats a lot of adaption and signal lose! help me find a way!

AAAHJ so many confusions!
 
Ambi, there are a number of problems with using the Motu 896 as you are obviously aware -

you didn't mention whether your turntables have preamps built in, or how you are getting them to line level. A turntable requires a special RIAA equalized preamp or it sounds like everything is coming through a telephone. This has to do with the limitations of vinyl records and bass response. You could not run an un-preamplified signal from a TT into ANY line level signal without some sort of RIAA equalizer in the circuit and expect it to sound right. Also, a TT output without a preamp is at about -40 dBV, so it would require a mic level input, but with the RIAA equalization. Best to get a phono preamp if your TT's don't already have them built in. You mentioned a mixer - if it's a DJ type mixer, it almost certainly will already have the correct circuitry to get the TT's sounding right. IF so, cool...

The inputs of the 896 are combo XLR/phone, so you could use RCA/phone cables for inputs without extra adapters.

The outputs, however, are straight MALE XLR connectors, switchable individually for either +4 or -10 levels. The -10 setting should work with any consumer (non-xlr) line level inputs. The problem would be finding ready made cables. Tascam used to offer 8 channel snakes with XLR's (both sexes) to RCA, but those have apparently been discontinued and I found no substitutes. For these connections, you would either need to make your own cables or have them made for you by a tech that is knowledgable on pin connections. Not a cheap way to go, but better than a whole string of adapters. The more connections, the more chance for crap getting into the signal.

Multi-channel sound cards, when the correct drivers are installed, appear in windows as 8 (or however many) separate inputs and outputs, to which your software can be assigned at will. You would connect (for example) outputs 7 and 8 to a minidisk, and assign the stereo output from your software to outputs 7 and 8; for inputs, if you had a source such as a minidisk that you wanted to record, you would configure (say) track 1 and 2 of your software, under properties (on some software) to use inputs 1 and 2 (as opposed to 5-6, etc) and if you had the external device connected to inputs 1 and 2, you would be able to set levels in software and record from that pair of inputs.

You also didn't mention if your computer already has a firewire port. If not, you would need to buy a firewire card and plug it into the motherboard of your computer. These can be had for anywhere from about $15 to $100 or more, depending on the manufacturer and options. IMPORTANT - The MOTU firewire audio cards don't like some firewire controllers - here is the text from their tech notes page. Disregard this and you will wish you hadn't...

"There's an incompatibility between the NEC chip found in some Firewire cards and the motu firewire line of interface.

If the firewire installer warns you that you're running a Firewire card with the NEC chip, you should replace said card with a card that uses the TI (Texas Instruments) or Lucent chip. Keyspan, Sonnet and ADS are a few of the many brands using the TI or Lucent firewire chips.

Please check with the manufacturer of the firewire card before purchasing it to ensure it has the TI or Lucent chip. "

Personally, I would not buy a MOTU product for use with a PC, since I have yet to hear of more than a few users that didn't have really frustrating experiences trying to get them to "play nice" together.

I hope this clarifies a few of your questions and helps you decide which way to go... Steve
 
hmm

yes that does help a lot thank you. The way i see it, i can get a spirit m12, and a delta 1010, for the same price as a motu 896. And with the spirit i have more pre's, more inputs, more options, faders, inserts, and a bunch of stuff, and on the delta i have midi, etc... So really you get more, and it would be easier to use, and more compatable, for the same price.
But ive been told that the motu is quieter, becuase there are less connections, its not mic - mixer-soundcard
its mic - motu. And its firewire, so its portable. I would not be using this setup for live most likely, probably just for home use, and i would not really be touching the eqing on the board just recording a flat, clean signal to mess with and mix on the computer. So i was told, "yea, you don't need the mixing board, your just gonna record a straight signal anyways, the motu is quieter, and the pres are just as good as the mackie or soundcraft, maybe a bit betteR"
any truth in any of this? What else could i do with a mixing board, and the delta with it, that i couldn't with the motu?
(one obvious, being that the outputs on the delta are 1/4', and the motus are xlr, so it would be easier to just get adapters or cables for my purpose)

thanks for the help guys!
 
knighfly,

I too am considering getting 2 896's, instead of 2 delta1010's, because I think the a/d/a conversion is better than on the delta1010. Not for the pres. I'll be using crest, greatriver, and avalon pres at first, and I'm not sure the delta can do justice to these pres. I really don't care if it's a pain in the ass to set up, but are there other problems with the 896? No one has really said anything to me about it being crap when I have suggested it. See thread studio a verses studio b if you need to know more.
 
Tyler, if you've figured out how to rob enough banks to afford the pre's you mentioned, why not stay at that level with your converters, such as Crane song or perhaps dB technologies?

MOTU is more in line quality-wise with RME - I don't think either one is crap, far from it - It's just that RME actually knows what a PC is, where MOTU doesn't seem to know or care. I've heard more bitches about MOTU not behaving with PC's than almost any other combination. The only times I've heard positive comments about MOTU/PC stuff is when the PC is a plain vanilla, Intel-all-the-way box.

If you don't think this is the case, ask yourself why MOTU products ship with an actual multitrack audio application for Macs, and barely include drivers for PC?

In all fairness, I've heard several cases of the 896 in particular getting along with PC's better than the other MOTU products. However, this only occurs with non-NEC firewire controllers. There is even a tech note at the MOTU site regarding non-compatibility with NEC firewire controller chips, and NOTHING about any plans to fix it. If you want your MOTU stuff to work at all, you need to make sure that your firewire interface does NOT, NOT, have an NEC brand controller chip on it. Period.

If you want something that is high (maybe not quite stellar) quailty for the PC, and you want something that will actually WORK, I would recommend the RME Multiface over anything MOTU makes.

Generally speaking, you will get more sound quality improvement from reading about engineering excellence (proper gain staging, mic placement, minimal processing by "getting it right", etc) than you will by "having all the best gear" - I'm sure you've read the comments about super gear + dumb shit vs. OK gear + knowledgable engineer - So, the most effective improvement in our system, regardless of cost, is always going to be knowledge and the use of it. That's why I, after 38 years in various Engineering fields I STILL read voraciously. I really believe that when you're too old to learn, it's because you're DEAD... Steve
 
so would you say the converters in the delta would be better than the motu? Is there anything else in that range that would have a lot better converters?
 
Yeah, this change wasn't really thought out much. It was kinda the spur of the moment. I actually found the Delta myself after reading tons of stuff on sound cards, and it turned out to be really great. I didn't do any research on this motu, i was just under the impression they were a great company. I guess I was wrong. Several other people have told me this too so that's probably a pretty good red flag.

So I checked out the RME Multiface just now. It looks like it could work, and for only 725 bucks, its cheaper than the motu which actually saves me 500 bucks once I get two. I'll have to read up on it more, but I like what I see so far. The only thing is it's a damn half rackspace. I hate that. Oh well. Its what's on the inside that counts. Thanks again.
 
I've not listened to anything by Delta, but generally you get what you pay for. In the case of MOTU, I think you pay a little too much. Maybe it's because they are more Mac oriented, and Mac users IMHO are more used to getting screwed on price than PC users, so "whatever the market will bear" may apply.

From the comments I've seen, the Delta stuff is hard to beat for the price. The RME stuff is a little more expensive, but those guys are primarily dedicated to quality PC recording, with Mac being kind of an afterthought.

I don't think it's fair to Delta to compare it to products that cost twice as much. In its price range, I've heard of nothing that's noticeably better.

In the low to mid-priced converter market, most units (if they have word clock inputs) can benefit from the use of a higher quality clock, such as the Aardsync , Nanosync, or Lucid. Living in a rather remote area myself I know this is sometimes hard to do, but as always your best advice should come from your own ears. If at all possible, you should arrange to listen to as many of the units in your price range as you can, BEFORE you buy. Yeah, I know that was much easier to type than it is to accomplish, but it's still true.

I would make a list of the units that are in your price range, remove the ones that don't do what you KNOW you need, and try to listen to as many of them as you can. When doing this, try to take into account the differences in systems if you can't check them out on the exact same system. A set of quality headphones can help limit the variables, but listening on speakers in a good room is better. In no way am I inferring that this will be easy, but it's the only way to be sure you're getting what will work for you... Steve
 
Steve,

Are you using the RME stuff? What system? I was checking out the ADI 8 Pro and it looks pretty cool. Are you familliar with the Hammerfall system? I'm a little skeptical about a bunch of PCI cards.

I'd like to get at least 8ch of good i/o for a PC.
 
TRK, actually what I've BEEN using, is a Yamaha DSP Factory card with Samplitude/C-Console/Cake9, and a Layla 20-bit for multichannel transfers from analog or direct outs.

I'm still in research mode on the next upgrade, which I hope to complete before Christmas of this year. I have a Tascam DM-24 with 8 channel analog expander and meter bridge, and will initially use those converters with a new DAW. I'm planning for two nearly identical PC's except for drives - one for soft synths/MIDI, and one strictly for digital audio. The audio machine will have 8 of the WD 120 gig IDE's with a Soyo Mobo (fire dragon) and a gig of DDR ram, 2.4 gig P4 OC'd to 3.1 gig, a 15,000 rpm SCSI 160 drive for video, and firewire DVD-r and CD-RW drives. The IDE's will all connect to the raid chip or regular IDE controller, but not in raid mode. From research so far, I'm expecting to get a minimum of 32 tracks at 32float/88.2, or 64 tracks at 44.1. The only part of this that will be allowed inside the control room is the KVM and optical drives. I'm hoping I can swing 4 of the Viewsonic 19" flat screens, two for each PC.

the main holdup so far has been 8 months with no income and too many companies that put stuff out without finding out or caring whether anyone else can interface with it.

I was originally looking at the RME stuff for an interface between the DM-24 and DAW. They claimed that their ADI8-DD would understand Tascam's TDIF2 spec and could convert that to two lightpipe outs, which could go into either a Hammerfall or a Digiface. By the time you buy the ADI8-DD, the Digiface, and a PCI card, you're at about $1800 for an 8 channel highway at high sample rates.

I raised so much shit on the Tascam BBS about their marketing types lying about the DM-24's capabilities, that they locked the thread. Apparently, however, it woke them up and they've been talking to RME, SEK'd, and possibly Lynx about TDIF2 compatibility. (TDIF2 is Tascam's method of getting the TDIF connection to handle bit splitting)

I called Martin Ucik of the US SEK'd rep about a week or so ago, and he said that they expected to have new drivers for their PRODIF-T card that would let you go direct from the DM-24 to a PC. IF that happens, you would be able to interface 8 channels (16 at normal rates) between Tascam and DAW for about $469 mail order. The PRODIF-T supposedly will work in tandem, so you could use 3 of them in one machine and tie 24 high sample channels or 48 normal rate channels from two DM-24's into a DAW. If SEK'D doesn't drop the ball, the savings in interface alone will more than pay for the Rosendahl Nanosync I still need, so I'm really hoping it isn't vaporware.

I was talking to the head of tech support for Creamware a few weeks ago, and they have a new A16 Ultra A/D/A that gives 16 channels of TRS at up to 96k, for about $1200 if I remember correctly. They are (like RME) using a firewire hardware setup, but with different protocol (not compatible with firewire) - I'd really like to hear this box, as it's about the price MOTU wants for 8 channels and the Creamware guy (not a sales type) claimed that they put this out for their own users' benefit and it should sell for a lot more. I'm still not clear just which of their cards would be necessary to interface it, but they were also getting ready to interface it with USB2. (This wouldn't help anyone with a P4, since Intel still hasn't learned how to make their P4 behave with USB at last look.)

Another good thing from Tascam is that their v2.0 firmware will include a SEPARATE midi fader layer for the DM-24, that will ONLY affect outboard stuff and not internal fader settings. That mixer, in spite of the yelling I did at Tascam, still kicks anything's ass for less than $10k...

Too many chapters in this book already - near as I can tell, the bottom line is still "Not ready for prime time", and we all should just go back to 2" tape and razor blades... I'd probably do that, since I've worked on a lot of 2" machines and could probably fall asleep doing it - If I just wasn't so damn greedy and stubborn, or If I hadn't been exposed to the fun Samplitude makes of editing audio... Steve
 
That creamware interface sounds interesting.

I just have such a hard time putting more than a grand into anything that is dedicated to digital audio. Especially at the rate that new technology is coming out. It almost seems self defeating to purchase anything less then DVDA standards which will be 24bit 196khz since that seems to be the direction everything is headed. Of course hardware like that is WAY out of reach for now.

24bit is still so new it's next to impossible to even find used high end convertors. I'll probably just get some 8 - 16 ch system that works for now. The only reason I even need that many channels is that I'm just not sold on DAW or digital console mixing.
 
hmm, yes that creamware does sound intresting. Is this just an A/D converter? or does it have an interface with the pc? im sorry im hazy right now, im pretty sure you siad they weren't sure if it was usb or not. Anyways, i'll wait and see how that pans out cause it may give me more channels and bang for my buck than the delta 1010.
 
Creamware makes several different levels of PCI cards, and any of those that have their "Z-Link" interface will work with the A16 Ultra. The A16 is an A/D/A converter. I haven't talked to their tech support guy for a while, so I don't know what the status of their upgrades is (USB2, etc) Here is a link to their page on it, look around - I've not found any of these in the mail order channels yet, they're still pretty new. Estimated street price was going to be around $1100 to $1200. I think their cheapest PCI card is around $250 or so, so that would still put the total price at less than $100 per channel. Anyway, check it out...

http://www.creamware.de/en/products/Converter/A16ultra/default.asp
 
I'm interested. Knightfly, how would this compare to two RME Multifaces?
 
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