I'm teaching a songwriting class - help me!

[Uncle Roel]

HARMONY!!!! Melody and harmony go hand in hand. The most silly melody can sound awesome with the right chords under it. Just a good melody or harmonization isn't enough. You need BOTH.

And when at it, why not add rhythm to it. Rhythm might seem as an essential part of melody, but it is more. And, show them how the melody can be easily broken apart to use the elements (small cells, motives etc, or just the rhythm, just the notes, the intervals...) to work out the rest of their song... Stuff like that.

(I'm a music theoretic, does it show? )

 

[lotuscent]

With all due respect...

And not to be a downer....

For me the thought someone teaching song writing, sounds like a greed tactic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard of anyone who "made it" ever mention anything like, " I have to thank my song writing teacher for where I am today."

I consider myself a very, very serious song writer. I consider myself a type of painter, or sculptor, a multi-track being my canvas, my guitar is my brush and my voice is a pallet of robust colors of paint. Some days, I feel that if I had any talent, I would not have time to be posting on HR.com. Other days, I feel that if was just a little smarter when I was younger, just was a little luckier, perhaps I would have had a hit.

I've without a doubt heard some great, great song writing talent in the clinic, this inspires me, hey if there is great song writers here, maybe I ‘m not quite as unique in the non discovery situation and maybe I do have talent.

That being said, songs come to me. I never wake up in the morning and think, " today I will write a song." or "I'm bored, might as well go and write a tune."

No, for me, songs simply come to me. While I'm driving my car, taking a shower and mostly, when I'm playing guitar or playing with the keyboard. Of course, I do try and succeed in tweaking them, a chord change here or there. And then when a band gets a hold of them they can change dramatically but, still they are the same song that somehow arrived in my head while doing the dishes.

AND I HAVE HEARD OF BIG, BIG NAMES HAVE THIS HAPPEN TO THEM.
I'm not comparing myself to these talents, James Taylor/ Paul McCartney, but if that is one of the probable many ways of song writing techniques, then that is the one I use.


That being said, I simply do not accept that song writing can be learned or taught.
Maybe it can be developed up, like in the case of George Harrison, but I do not think that taking a class, reading a book, or a song writing video by Paul Simon, is going get anyone to write a song like Something.

Putting 3 chords together and singing, "I love you honey", six times in a row, does not classify as song writing either, other wise, the great POP song writers of our time, would never have bad albums.

This again is meant not to be offensive, I'm just surprise no one has mentioned it.


Sean

Dude, trying to be as diplomatic as possible... your post is so full of judgement and self absorption (observe how the two usually go hand in hand) that it makes me wince... in one fell stroke you have in your own mind invalidated Aaron, all his students, and probably most of us here on this board.

Yeah, I study songwriting. I study songwriters. I take every piece of info out there as a gift, every encouragement from teachers or otherwise, every comment, all the feedback. I learn. And yes, I am a better songwriter because of it.

Your process of writing isn't any different then mine, or a lot of others here for sure. yeah, songs come to me. That doesn't make me special or gifted, it just means I have trained myself to be creative and sometimes it happens in a beautiful, spontaneous way. It certainly doesn't mean that I don't need to listen to the advice or direction of others.

We are all our own greatest teacher. If we want to bad enough, we will write songs. Period. If we want to learn and grow, we will look for every opportunity. Sometimes, the teacher within ourselves recognizes that opportunity as the input or direction of another.

 

[junplugged]

Anything can be taught, but not everything can be learned. You can teach songwriting like you can teach the English language. Does this mean the students will speak and/or write something, an essay or a letter or a speech or even a good conversation or email that is great? No, and it doesn't mean the songwriting students will write a great song. It's still fun and educational and entertaining, hopefully, and has a lot of potential.

I think someone taught me how to write some forms of poetry, I didn't write any. I didn't want to. But I'm glad I went to the class. A class can also teach people some reality and some can decide it isn't for them.

Most people have nothing lasting to say or write anyway, so if they know how to write a song it doesn't mean they'll change and suddenly become insightful, introspective, and have some universal theme to share.

The part of songwriting that is easier to teach is lyric writing. The music is the hard part to teach. That's a bigger, way more complex subject.

When I was studying Calculus, I would dream of equations, when I studied programming I would program some code in my sleep and it would work when I compiled it when I was later awake. When I'm songwriting a lot, I do that in my sleep too. Sting said that he wrote Every Breath in his sleep.

The famous, prolific and successful writers said that if they just waited for inspiration, they wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

 

[gascap]

Most - if not all - serious painters and sculptors studied with masters and apprenticed before going solo.

More to point; Paula Cole won her first Grammy and in her acceptance speech gave BIG thanks to all her music teachers in her life. I'd never heard a recipient do that before.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

I am a firm believer in the notion that quality only exists in the midst of quantity. To write really good songs, you must write lots of songs. You must immerse yourself in the processes of looking for ideas, and then developing them into songs.
I've had songs come to me in one magnificent "brain-dump" as well. It's not because I'm gifted or brilliant or more insightful than the next guy. It's because I'm immersed in the process of working out lyrics and melodies, and writing songs in general, my brain is wired to work those things out, just like junplugged was saying about calculus and programming. I've had the same type of experiences with both Tetris and the Rubik's cube. (Giving away my age )
Reading songwriting books or taking a class are just ways of immersing yourself in the process and training your brain to work out those types of puzzles. I consider myself a moderately accomplished songwriter, but I would never pass on the chance to learn more, or be shown how to approach it in a new way.

So for myself... I hope to always wake up in the morning and think, " today I will write a song." or "I'm bored, might as well go and write a tune," because it's the labor that sets you up for the inspiration. Frankly, I just don't believe it can work any other way.

Songwriters like Sting or Lennon/McCartney definitely get their share of inspired songs, but to think they got them simply because they were gifted is akin to assuming that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb in one inspired night.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[gascap]

I once read an interview with Elvis Costello where he said that songwriting was a daily excercise and that just like any excercise, you get better each day with practice....basically reiterating your point.

I like your Thomas Edison comparison even better. Your class will be a strong one, I think.

 

[shantishanti]

i would want to learn about software that can be used for composing (not recording) songs, like writing them out in a graphical format - are you teaching anything along those lines?

 

[tanlith]

i would want to learn about software that can be used for composing (not recording) songs, like writing them out in a graphical format - are you teaching anything along those lines?

Sounds like you're looking for something related to music composition... I believe this thread is more about song writing as it pertains to lyrics... or am I mistaken??

- Tanlith -

 

[Aaron Cheney]

There is no such software that I know of - unless you're talking about Encore or some other notation software. That's not what the class is about.
Notation software lets you creat sheet music for a song you've already written. A songwriting class is about the actually creating lyrics and music in the first place.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[Son of Mixerman]

Aaron,

Im sorry if Im repeating a post or idea I might have glanced over. I think one aspect of teaching songwriting that gets overlooked is the philosophy of writing. I know people who have memorized scales, chords words and forms but couldn't write a 2 minute tune that is listenable. One of my challenges has always been taking whats in my head and putting it into reality. The proper choice of instruments and how do demo's are just as important as lyrics and tempo.
Steve Vai told me once that writing swings from a moment of inspiration to decade long tweakings for the end result to be as it needs to be. I get side tracked(ADHD) too easy so a good idea can often get lost in noodling. Record ideas even if your just humming. Try teaching phrase modification. For example taking a hook from a top 40 song and modifying it to make it different. Plagerism is a critical part of the evolution of music. Learn to transcribe anywhere at anytime. Whats the purpose of the song sometimes can help you write a song. Jingles verses Instrumental rock operas for example are two different types of songs. I think having studies on innvators in music is helpful. Who were the founders of the genre's.
Sorry if these aren't in any coherant order. Helpful or not?

SoMm

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Actually, your comments parallel an article I once wrote called "The Audio Sketchpad Principle". Basically, it adresses the concept of writing songs in a world where everybody has a complete studio in their home, and how to focus on writing a song with those tools.
Too many people get lost in layering guitars and vocals too soon in the song-writing process and end up with 900 really well-produced unfinished songs. My article talks instead about approaching songwriting on a computer much as artist approaches a blank canvas, starting with broad strokes and working very quickly to flesh out the basic form and shape of things. Then as the work proceeds you begin to lay in the texture and depth. THen, only when the form is solid and the vision is clear, does the artist work on the small details.
In other words, get the songwriting out of the way before you start working on the production. Not everyone agrees, but it's been helpful to me to approach things that way.

It's a really cool article.

I should be famous any day now.....






Still waiting.....







Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[Jagular]

i would want to learn about software that can be used for composing (not recording) songs, like writing them out in a graphical format - are you teaching anything along those lines?

I found this program http://lyricpro.com/

I downloaded the evaluation version and so far I like it. I don't know if I'm going to spring for the $60 for the complete version or not. This proggy is a help for me in organization and brainstorming. Plus it includes a rhyming dictionary which is only activated with the full version, so I don't know how good it is.

One could certainly do the same things without this proggy, but I am natually disorganized and hate paper work (so I became a CPA ). I may yet buy it, but I may see if I can use a variety of other tools to do similar functions (Word, Excel...)

Anyway, check it out. It doesn't cost anything to try

 

[Jagular]

Actually, your comments parallel an article I once wrote called "The Audio Sketchpad Principle". Basically, it adresses the concept of writing songs in a world where everybody has a complete studio in their home, and how to focus on writing a song with those tools.
Too many people get lost in layering guitars and vocals too soon in the song-writing process and end up with 900 really well-produced unfinished songs. My article talks instead about approaching songwriting on a computer much as artist approaches a blank canvas, starting with broad strokes and working very quickly to flesh out the basic form and shape of things. Then as the work proceeds you begin to lay in the texture and depth. THen, only when the form is solid and the vision is clear, does the artist work on the small details.
In other words, get the songwriting out of the way before you start working on the production. Not everyone agrees, but it's been helpful to me to approach things that way.

It's a really cool article.

I should be famous any day now.....






Still waiting.....







Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

That's pretty much how I have been working. In fact, I usually don't do any audio recording until I at least have a full set of lyrics and a tentative melody/chord structure. Usually lyrics will dictate some melodies for me to try and then I start messing around sangin w/ the guit until I iron something out. Then I will record a scratch of guitar & vocal and study the lyrics & the music for a bit to come up with edits for both. I think that is relatively the same process you are talking about.

Has the class started yet? If so how's it going?

 

[shantishanti]

I found this program http://lyricpro.com/

I downloaded the evaluation version and so far I like it. I don't know if I'm going to spring for the $60 for the complete version or not. This proggy is a help for me in organization and brainstorming. Plus it includes a rhyming dictionary which is only activated with the full version, so I don't know how good it is.

One could certainly do the same things without this proggy, but I am natually disorganized and hate paper work (so I became a CPA ). I may yet buy it, but I may see if I can use a variety of other tools to do similar functions (Word, Excel...)

Anyway, check it out. It doesn't cost anything to try

this seems like a pretty neat little program - thanx for the lead

what i am also looking for is something that would lay it all out, music and lyrics - i guess i should just bite the bullet and check out some notation progs and see where that gets me

 

[tanlith]

One could certainly do the same things without this proggy, but I am natually disorganized and hate paper work (so I became a CPA ). I may yet buy it, but I may see if I can use a variety of other tools to do similar functions (Word, Excel...)

Anyway, check it out. It doesn't cost anything to try

... heh... I hated going to school... so I became a Network Engineer... now I spend 3-4 weeks / year in classes to keep updated... and Microsoft gets a good % of my income for maintaining my certs...

... someone shoot me...


... now....


... please...


- Tanlith -

 

[LI_Slim]

Great thread; just ran across it.


For homework, you might suggest that everyone read THIS THREAD, or perhaps some of the other excellent discussions in this forum, or some of the other songwriter interviews that people here have referred to.

Also, see if you can get a really good songwriter to show up. Maybe even someone well-known. In my experience, songwriters are willing to show up for nothing if it's a chance to share their art.

How about a group collaboration? Have the whole class write something together, basically by consensus.

 

[glynb]

Get them to interact.

If you're stuck do what my wife's Spanish teacher does.
Get them to work with a partner or small group on a particular topic. Leave the room and have a coffee/fag/comfort break. Come back 30 minutes later and see what they have come up with and get other memebers of the class to cross comment. Get your coat and go home. Pick up the pay check!

Seriously though, syndicate workcan be a really good idea and takes the pressure off you the teacher to be performing all the time.

 

[jimistone]

i think the biggest mistakes a new songwriter makes are:
A) the song has no theme
B) if it does have a theme its one that appeals to no-one but the writer
C) the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th verses say the exact same thing as the 1st verse (just different wording)
D) they can't decide whether the song is in 1st 2nd or 3rd person....past present or future tense...so they use them all and confuse the listener
E) they put corny lines in their songs in order to make a rhyme (instead of realizing the word they are trying to rhyme with needs to be changed)
F) and finally...the order of events of the story are out of order .(another words its like reading a book from the middle to the last chapter...then going back and reading the 1st half of the book)


i have been guilty of all the above...but im getting better with age.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

i think the biggest mistakes a new songwriter makes are:
A) the song has no theme
B) if it does have a theme its one that appeals to no-one but the writer
C) the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th verses say the exact same thing as the 1st verse (just different wording)
D) they can't decide whether the song is in 1st 2nd or 3rd person....past present or future tense...so they use them all and confuse the listener
E) they put corny lines in their songs in order to make a rhyme (instead of realizing the word they are trying to rhyme with needs to be changed)
F) and finally...the order of events of the story are out of order .(another words its like reading a book from the middle to the last chapter...then going back and reading the 1st half of the book)

Those are all good calls...but my particular favorite is "E". The only thing I would add to that list would be the use of "dead" metaphors and similes, such as: hard as a rock, high as a kite, and loud as thunder. They are so old that they just go straight in one ear and out the other.


Ohh..... and for the love people!..... please don't rhyme anything with "fire"!!!!!! We've heard 'em all: "higher", "pyre", "liar", "desire"....

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[Jagular]

Those are all good calls...but my particular favorite is "E". The only thing I would add to that list would be the use of "dead" metaphors and similes, such as: hard as a rock, high as a kite, and loud as thunder. They are so old that they just go straight in one ear and out the other.


Ohh..... and for the love people!..... please don't rhyme anything with "fire"!!!!!! We've heard 'em all: "higher", "pyre", "liar", "desire"....

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

choir