I'm teaching a songwriting class - help me!

[gascap]

I know in a class like yours you probably won't have a problem pairing up folks for collabs, but let me just say this:

Many times in school when the teacher chose the 'breking up into teams' method, it seemed like many times that I ended up doing the majority of the work, yet the group received the grade. Granted, these weren't music courses and your students will be of different mind-set than when I was in that environment, but I'm still leary about how 'team projects' break down in the end. Obviously co-writes are everywhere in the music biz and are certainly worth devoting time to in a soingwriting class, so mine is probably a non-issue here. Still...I thought I'd throw it out there....maybe a collab scenario would be stronger later in the course. I'll bet your students will let you know (either vocally outright, or by their behavior) whether collabs will fly.

I also echo Crawdad's question about titles being at the end of the course. Most Nashville writers (the ones I met anyway) have notebooks full of nothing but hooks/titles - which is where the writing sessions always started. Obviously this isn't always the way, but it was pretty prevalent there.

This is an interesting thread!

Good luck!

 

[junplugged]

My only question in your lesson plan is this: why is creating good titles in the afterwards section? It should be in the ideas section at the start. The title embodies the idea of the song and is often used as a starting point. Its not like we write a song and then figure out what title to slap on it.

Anyway, your plan sounds like a good one and it should be an interesting journey for all involved. I would really like to hear your comments as the class progresses. I have been tossing around the idea of doing the same thing here in Michigan.

Best of luck!

True. One of the Ideas from Davis' 'Idea' book is kinds of titles to choose from as a starting point. I had a problem at first reading this, but then I tried it and I came up with one of my best. It's like keeping the thesis in mind while writing to support it.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Yeah, I thought about the title issue myself, and I still may end up putting it up front.
For me, the seed for most of my songs is a glib phrase or line that usually ends up being the hook of the song, and thus usually the title. The thing is, my working title usually gets modiphied once the song is finished, because I never want it to be passive, if you know what I mean.
For example: the hook of a song might be "If You Say We're Through". I wouldn't want that for the final title. I would rather the title be "If You Say" or "If", or something else that asks for further investigation to explain itself.
I guess I can talk about it in both ways: as a springboard for ideas and as something to think about near the end, to be used as a catalyst for the listener.

Let me run this one by you guys: I'm thinking about talking about the difference in writing "stand-alone" songs vs. writing songs for an album or yourself as a perfromer. The former being a situation where you could write lots of different styles and try to sell your songs to others, and the latter being where you might want to concentrate on continuity between songs.
What say you all?

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[terocious]

I want to focus on writing good hooks and melodies, but as the "What makes a good melody" post a while back showed, that a pretty hard thing to pin down. I guess in the end I just have to teach those things the way I see them and let the class take that for what it's worth.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

Maybe you could assemble a montage of 10 or so great hooks strung together and play it for the class. Afterwords you could talk briefly about what you think makes the ones you chose great. It would be cool to see how many of your favorite hooks the class knew and could also easily lead into a discussion of why some hooks or phrases are so vastly popular. I think you are right about teaching things the way you see them. My favorite teachers have always been people who are not afraid to share their personal point of view.

-b

 

[junplugged]

That's a good point. there is definitely a difference in the way people write when they are writing for a publisher and the song gets to a performer vs. self-contained songwriter/performer.

the self-contained writer can do whatever the heck they want to since no one else has to be impressed first with the material. That works in 2 ways though.

On the one hand it doesn't have to be great, or as univeral of a theme, depending on the performer/writer's standards, and on the other hand it can be more personal.

However, to impress a performer to accept a song that exists already, it has to be universal enough for them to think it will work with their audience and also strike a chord for them personally as a performer.

Davis talks about that too in one of the books, maybe all of them, probably all.

She also mentions a bunch of things to keep in mind when writing so that the song can be potentially accepted by a lot of performers. One thing that comes to mind is to place the singer in a positive light. She mentioned that it may be a problem if your singer is a bigot, or a serial killer, or a rapist, or a user, abuser, etc. she mentions that the singer becomes the song. If you think of the really great performers, mostly very good vocalists, they put their heart and soul in to the performance and that means that they must really believe in the song and what the singer is singing about.

Well, you got me thinking, I think I'll got back and hit those books again!

HTH - j.

 

[crawdad]

There is a big difference in writing stand alone songs and songs for yourself, in my experience. I wrote for ten years with the songs aimed at Nashville and that market. Then, I went in a much more personal direction and I liked a lot of what I did for myself. Its all a matter of which yardstick you want to measure the results with. I'd get tossed out if I took my personal songs to Nashville, or I'd get a lecture about needing to be more universal. If I played my Nashville stuff at a coffehouse, I'd probably be accused of being too commercial.

Its two different mindsets that spring from the same well. Writing commercial stuff, you are looking to say things that resonate across the board--the things we all hold in common (or that a specific demographic believes or has experienced). In personal writing, you dig deep to find a special thing within yourself to say, which may or may not hold water for everyone who listens. The danger in commercial writing is being too trite or in rehashing so much of whats already been said, yet sometimes the right idea surfaces and it is both commercial and personal. Likewise, sometimes if you dig deep enough and write something personal, you end up striking a common chord. Down deep, I think human beings have many common feelings and deal with the same basic things. Knowing that can be useful for a songwriter.

The funny thing is, its usually producers and publishers that stress writing commercially, but if you play them a great personal from the heart song that has that across the board agreement, they wouldn't know the difference.

If you feel the song you are writing and write it well, it has a good chance of moving others too. Sometimes I have to stop and ask myself, "is this real--is this a bona fide attitude or feeling--or am I losing touch with reality?" I think thats an important thing to keep track of.

 

[lotuscent]

Hey Aaron - did anybody ever teach you how to write a song?

Or did you just listen, create, and follow the muse?

I'm a guitar teacher (among other things) like you (I checked your site), but I have never really had an instructor. I have had a total of 10 or so lessons in my life from as many different teachers. I can't really credit any of them with teaching me anything that I wasn't already dying to teach myself, and would have sooner or later. But some of them did make it easier for me and some were just worthless.

So I guess what I'm boiling down to here is that the people who will really get something out of your class and use it are those folks that are already going that way. But I bet you know that.

Most of them turn out to be flakes. Once you get to know them, you will see where to go. Give it to the ones who really want it.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

crawdad - good point about the self-check to see if the emotions are real.

lotuscent - I'm totally self-taught in both regards. Which actually brings me to a deep, dark secret of mine: I've been teaching guitar for years, but when I first started I struggled with feelings of inadequacy. Even now I sometimes look at my haul of cash and I'm a little amazed that all these people are paying me to teach them something that seems so easy to learn on one's own.

Now with the prospect of this class looming before me, I'm really struggling with feeling inadequate. I know I can write decent songs, but there's this fear that somehow someone's going to pull back the curtain and see that I'm just a schlubb that's not doing anything that anybody else couldn't do. Does that sound corny?

The thing is, I really like to teach. Ya, I've go my share of guitar students that never really practice, and have no passion. On the other hand, there is nothing so heady as sitting there when somebody suddenly realizes why a scale words over a certain chord, or something like that.

Anyway, my soul is bared. Hope I'm not the only one that ever feels that way.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[Beltrom]

I know I can write decent songs, but there's this fear that somehow someone's going to pull back the curtain and see that I'm just a schlubb that's not doing anything that anybody else couldn't do. Does that sound corny?

No, more like human. I think most of us have these feelings. Maybe especially those of us who has been into teaching.
I've been into computers since around '80, both as a hobby, as a teacher and as a pro programmer. I still wonder why noone's onto me. No matter how much I learn, or how much I accomplish and what problems I solve, I still feel like a fake. I think it's because the more I learn the more I know how much there is that I don't know. This combined with the fact that when you gained some knowledge you have a tendency not to appreciate it as much as when you didn't have it. The same goes for music I guess.

Back when I was a teacher we used too say "a teacher doesn't have to know everything, but he should be the most knowledgeable student in the class."
But don't underestimate your own knowledge. There's a chance that you won't pick up the problems your students are having because for you there aren't any problems.

 

[lotuscent]

- I'm totally self-taught in both regards. Which actually brings me to a deep, dark secret of mine: I've been teaching guitar for years, but when I first started I struggled with feelings of inadequacy. Even now I sometimes look at my haul of cash and I'm a little amazed that all these people are paying me to teach them something that seems so easy to learn on one's own.

Now with the prospect of this class looming before me, I'm really struggling with feeling inadequate. I know I can write decent songs, but there's this fear that somehow someone's going to pull back the curtain and see that I'm just a schlubb that's not doing anything that anybody else couldn't do.

The thing is, I really like to teach. Ya, I've go my share of guitar students that never really practice, and have no passion. On the other hand, there is nothing so heady as sitting there when somebody suddenly realizes why a scale words over a certain chord, or something like that.

http://www.voodoovibe.com

dude, I relate entirely. people think they can pay you for lessons and emerge 4 years later with a black belt! Disregarding what may be true in Amreican dojos (don't get me started), I hate that attitude, yet it is what pays the most of my bills...!

And yeah, any schmuck with potential (read : any schmuck) who consistently applies his/herself will become a good player or songwriter. I did it and I am not gifted - I've met gifted people - they drive me crazy.
But still, people want me to share and reveal my gift which does not exist. It's just hard work. That's all. But of course, nobody wants to pay to hear that.

 

[gascap]

I got the opportunity to go to Mark O'Connor's fiddle camp (I know it sounds goofy - especially if you've never heard him play) ...while HE is a bonified virtuoso I learned little - if anything - from him. BUT the other teachers he had on staff made the pricey admission worth it....they knew first-hand where I was with my skills and therefore, how to help me.

There is a saying that goes something like: "Those who can't, teach" This is nonsense. Teaching involves skillsets as specific and complex as any other wallk of life.

The fact that you're taking time and care with your class content & structure at THIS point tells me that you will do fine.

Shoot, I've learned a lot from this thread alone!

Cheers!

 

[terocious]

I do not think a day goes by that I do not feel inadequate in some way or other wether it be in art, carpentry or mixing a margeurita. I think your candid disclosure of such feelings to people you hardly know is part of what is going to make you a great songwriting teacher. It is true that everyone is capable but the capable look to the accomplished for inspiration and some people are just plain stuck until, as gascap said, "someone recognizes the spark." This thread is very cool. I love the philosophy that the teacher is the most knowledgable student in the class.

-b

 

[PEPPER G]

thank you

Thanks for the insight, I actually got some good idea's from it. more like the do's and don't and I like your wicked sence of humour re: the A and R guys (Producers etc) they don't know a contrived song from one that comes from the heart. and thats what we are up against. gawd help us. I am trying to encourage collaborations but sorting them out is hard . Its like putting amadus with a rapper then again country with a rocker can work
also age groups come into it . Its not easy my friend but thanks for the input, anymore comments would be gladly recieved,,..TY
Gary

 

[junplugged]

...It's just hard work. That's all. But of course, nobody wants to pay to hear that.

True about the work. There's the moment of inspiration, then there's the hours and days of editing and ripping up your idea and your FIRST DRAFT to shreds and then making it good.

I would definitely stress that too many songs never get past the first draft. They need to get past the first draft feelings of, "This is my baby," and analize the crap out of it and that's the "Work."

then, wait, and return to it and do it more. It doesn't mean you have to keep your favorite stuff out of it, you can just put it aside and brutally edit. Those songs that don't get edited past the first draft still get sold and airplay and make money and maybe even fortunes, but, since that's such an elusive goal anyway, why not make a song that is able to communicate, not just be your little crappy baby, because you did it yourself. Gotta fight the ego a little and get past the look-Mom-I-wrote-a-lyric-to-my-song event.

Why? Because it feels good, no, great, to actually feel that you started w/ inspiration, then worked on it and ended up with something that can inspire not just you, but others.

And apart from every one so self-riteously exclaiming that to edit and work hard to make it universal is to sell out, that's a canyon load of crap. That's the same as saying that you don't want to use sentence structure, paragraphs, spelling and the rest of English Grammar because what you just typed is sooooo personal and soooo inpiring to your self. Fine, but no one else is going to understand it. And that's why you need to learn the rules of lyric structure. Not to commercialize a song, we all know great, great songs that have no commercial potential, but to communicate to the listener.

I would stress that in lyric structure, that you aren't trying to use a formula for a song, but just use rules that must be followed for others to be able to understand what the singer or writer is trying to communicate. b/c if you can't communicate, then why use words at all? Then fine, just be a performance oriented song and that's ok too, or hum, or be Yoko screaming behind John. Fine, no one will argue with you, but if you want a listener to understand something that the writer wants to communicate, then there are real rules that are for that purpose only, and not to sell your soul to Nashville.

 

[chazba]

Hi Aaron ....For a couple of years in the mid '70s I taught a songwriting class at our local CC. I had a great time and met and made friends with a lot of people, some of them I am still in contact with. I hope you have as much fun as I did. I think you're on the right track dividing the material into 4 sections. There really is no wrong way to do it, but I'll bet that next term you will change things around some. My most succesful sessions included
some time spent in "seminar" form, where each student in turn gota chance to show off his or her"best song". Classmates could ask questions but negative criticism was not allowed. One caveat...be careful not to let the more confident outgoing students dominate. They can have an inhibiting effect on the newbies, some of whom might be way better writers, but shy.
Also , as someone pointed out, don't let it be a guitar/piano class.Another trap..."betcha can't sing/play/write/whatever / as good as ME 'cause I'm the teacher! Keep your ego at home. There just may be someone out there who will shred your shit. Good luck and enjoy .....writeon...chazba

 

[Beltrom]

One caveat...be careful not to let the more confident outgoing students dominate. They can have an inhibiting effect on the newbies, some of whom might be way better writers, but shy.

Good point - that's something that should even be considered when planing the lesson.

 

[smellyfuzz]

With all due respect...

And not to be a downer....

For me the thought someone teaching song writing, sounds like a greed tactic.
Like, "with in 6 weeks, your penis will be 3 inches longer, or your money back, minus shipping, handling and a 30% restocking fee."


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard of anyone who "made it" ever mention anything like, " I have to thank my song writing teacher for where I am today."

I consider myself a very, very serious song writer. I consider myself a type of painter, or sculptor, a multi-track being my canvas, my guitar is my brush and my voice is a pallet of robust colors of paint. Some days, I feel that if I had any talent, I would not have time to be posting on HR.com. Other days, I feel that if was just a little smarter when I was younger, just was a little luckier, perhaps I would have had a hit.

I've without a doubt heard some great, great song writing talent in the clinic, this inspires me, hey if there is great song writers here, maybe I ‘m not quite as unique in the non discovery situation and maybe I do have talent.

That being said, songs come to me. I never wake up in the morning and think, " today I will write a song." or "I'm bored, might as well go and write a tune."

No, for me, songs simply come to me. While I'm driving my car, taking a shower and mostly, when I'm playing guitar or playing with the keyboard. Of course, I do try and succeed in tweaking them, a chord change here or there. And then when a band gets a hold of them they can change dramatically but, still they are the same song that somehow arrived in my head while doing the dishes.

AND I HAVE HEARD OF BIG, BIG NAMES HAVE THIS HAPPEN TO THEM.
I'm not comparing myself to these talents, James Taylor/ Paul McCartney, but if that is one of the probable many ways of song writing techniques, then that is the one I use.


That being said, I simply do not accept that song writing can be learned or taught.
Maybe it can be developed up, like in the case of George Harrison, but I do not think that taking a class, reading a book, or a song writing video by Paul Simon, is going get anyone to write a song like Something.

Putting 3 chords together and singing, "I love you honey", six times in a row, does not classify as song writing either, other wise, the great POP song writers of our time, would never have bad albums.

This again is meant not to be offensive, I'm just surprise no one has mentioned it.

Flame away !

Sean

 

[tanlith]

With all due respect...

And not to be a downer....

For me the thought someone teaching song writing, sounds like a greed tactic.
Like, "with in 6 weeks, your penis will be 3 inches longer, or your money back, minus shipping, handling and a 30% restocking fee."


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard of anyone who "made it" ever mention anything like, " I have to thank my song writing teacher for where I am today." .... etc... etc...

Basically, anything can be taught... in fact, a MAJOR percentage of what you know was learned either through someone showing you how or learning (reading etc...)

A class in teaching could be looked upon much like a "specialized" english class... We studied poetry in english class briefly so as to gain a deeper understanding of that particular literary genre. In much the same way we can study song writing... it's essentially the same thing with the exception that it is put to music. And I believe most people would agree upon the importance of study and group collaboration to gain a deeper understanding of how something is accomplished... and if you disagree with that, then why are you here (on this BBS)?

ladies and gentlemen I rest my case....

- Tanlith -

Disclaimer: This post was not meant to flame; insult or spam anyone here. the very fact that people are comming to this site to share and learn indicates a certain level of intelectual prowess. If anyone has taken offence I sincerely don't care. May contain sodium phosphate; void where prohibited by law. Side effects may include dizziness; vomiting; dihareah; constipation and the urge to hump the nearest cooking appliance. Do not take with alcohol or any other prescribed depressant. You must be 18yrs or older to participate. Let there be light! Let there be cable TV so my children will have something to watch while the worship me! Let there be HBO, Show Time, and Comedy Central so that those with no real talent will have a place to express themselves! Let there be The Hansens, Spice Girls and The Back Street Boys; because every generation needs their Partige Family! Let there be Spam! Let my children taste this foul Spam and resolve never to touch it again! Let there be Satan so that people won't blame everything on me! Let there be lawyers so people don't blame everything on Satan! Let there be higher education and learning centers so that my children can spend most of their life learning and not doing! Let there be three classes of people: The rich who will resolve to continually divide up the worlds riches among themselves; the middle class who will do all of the work and recieve none of the pleasures the rich have; and the homless to scare the middle class into continuing with their jobs! Thou shalt not pork thy neighbor's wife (the daughter is OK though)! Thou shalt not kill (unless it is in my name and is reasoned by ignorance and biggotry)! Thou shalt not take my name in vien (unless you hit your thumb with a hammer)! Thou shalt be excellent to one another!

 

[Beltrom]

Sean,

if that where true. What are you doing in the songwriting forum? I thought the whole point of this forum was to learn from each other and communicate about songwriting. Pretty much what a songwriting class is about. But of course a bit more guided or even monitored than this place.

I agree that we all probably have more or less talent in this field, but this is true in basically any field. And just like in most areas some people will have so much talent that they seemingly teach themselves. But some will need a teacher and blossom under the guidance of the teacher that is right for them. Some will never tap into it no matter what. Basically the challenge or the work of the teacher is to find the student at the place he or she is, and guide them further along the way towards the goal the student wish to reach. This is of course (in my view) possible in songwriting also.

I think your view is pretty odd. But no flames. You're entitled to it.

 

[Beltrom]

Is it perhaps a case of misunderstood goals? Because I agree that Aarons class probably won't make all his students into world-class songwriters, but I'm pretty sure most of them will be BETTER songwriters. Shouldn't that be a valid goal or outcome?

btw. I've even read books that I think have made me a better songwriter. So I'd be surprised if I couldn't learn from a class.