I'm not deep.

Pengu1n

New member
So here's my problem... got all sorts of songs, starts to songs, finished songs (very few), but mostly songs with all the instrumentals and maybe me humming along with them. The problem for me is that I can't seem to write lyrics. I'm not a very deep person.

Surely not everyone who writes lyrics in the music industry are super deep, all knowing, bi-polar literary geniuses? I'm just wondering where to draw inspiration from without forcing myself to have a traumatic experience. I can write the occasional funny song, but I don't want to turn myself into something like Weird Al.

I think I may be thinking along the lines of the Barenaked Ladies. There lyrics make sense, but they're not crazy metaphors all the time. Or something more developed than early Weezer...
 
So here's my problem... got all sorts of songs, starts to songs, finished songs (very few), but mostly songs with all the instrumentals and maybe me humming along with them. The problem for me is that I can't seem to write lyrics.
That is exactly how I would've described myself in the run up to summer '83. I wanted to make music. But all I played was a bass, I didn't know the names of any notes, I couldn't sing and play it at the same time {I still can't ! But it doesn't matter because I can play guitar and sing simultaneously now}. 29 years later, I find I can write lyrics. I used to wish I could and it seemed that other people I knew that could were so poetic though I never really rated their stuff.
For me the words in a song are a combination somewhere of being really important and not really being important at all ~ it seems to depend on the writer. There are some writers that simply have a fantastic way with words and they are able to say something really deep in a melodic way that fits the song. They fit so well that you may not even notice the actual words themselves and the sense they make and the depth of what they are saying. The same is true of words that may be trite and shallow or not particularly deeply thought out. But if they fit the whole tenor of the song, it doesn't really matter. In both cases.
A good example are the lyrics that people like Sting, Bob Marley, Bob Dylan, Barrett Strong, Ray Davies, Eddie Holland and George Harrison used to come up with. As actual statements of depth, they are deep and historically informative. But to be honest, my primary care is "do I like the song ?".
Today as I was swimming, I was listening to a variety of songs and one that came on the MP3 was "Satellite" by Def Leppard on their first album. They were teenagers when they released that, it's the only album of theirs I have any time for. The lyrics on the album aren't particularly deep or historically informative. Joe Elliot was a kid from Sheffield working in a factory that had barely been out of Sheffield when he wrote many of the lyrics on the album. They sprung from his imagination as opposed to his experience. Yet here he is writing cleverly crafted songs about an America he'd never been to, a groupie hunting band he'd never been in, a set of man eating groupies he'd never come across, a drug wasted life he'd never lived, mystical experiences he'd never had, the visions of an old testament type prophet that he wasn't, space exploration he wasn't informed in...........The point is, the lyrics fit musically and melodically and as part of the vocals are an integral part of the songs ~ without drawing attention to their actual subject matter or how lame they might actually be. They contribute towards the overall effect. Totally different in concept to say, Sting's "St Augustine in hell" and thousands like it but the effect is the same ~ a good song. If you don't speak English but love the songs, it makes no difference.
So in conclusion, sometimes you need to force yourself to write stuff. Any old stuff. That's what I eventually did. I had become a christian by the time I got on a real roll in terms of writing lyrics and my initial focus was trying to write songs members of a church in a meeting could sing. But it just wasn't me. Because I always felt single focus writers soon, quite simply, get boring. John Lennon got really offended that people didn't want to listen to his Yoko songs. Well, when they didn't mention her {"Don't let me down", "I want you", "Come together", "Happiness is a warm gun"} it was easier to swallow. But he soon reverted to writing more expansively. I found that I had far more to say than any single focus could ever allow. So I'd write anything. Serious stuff. Silly stuff. Obscure stuff. Poetic stuff. Angry stuff. Humourous stuff. It's not that 'anything goes', rather, 'everything goes'.
Sometimes I'll just knock out a stream of words and then go through the process of adding bits or taking bits out. Eventually, a set of lyrics that fit the music {or vice versa} emerges. Sometimes I'll marvel at my depth of insight. Other times I marvel that I can get away with just stringing some words together. And other times, I'll reflect on how jagged and bumpy the lyrics are. No finesse. Most lyricists end up writing all different kinds of quality lyrics, be they great, good, average or shit. Sometimes all in the same song.
 
That was really, really helpful. I feel kinda lame with this short reply, but you pretty much answered all my questsions. Hell, dispatch is a master of lyrics that go well with the song and make no sense. I think I've been trying to make the lyrics make too much sense, and been holding back the part that says something sounds good, even if it makes no sense.
 
Most lyricists end up writing all different kinds of quality lyrics, be they great, good, average or shit. Sometimes all in the same song.

That pretty much nails it.

The best way to become half way decent at lyric writing is to treat it like acquiring any other skill. It can help to read a bit about lyric writing, but you can learn just as much by simply reading lots of lyrics that made it to recording and see how they did it. So read, look and listen carefully, and then just do it and do it and do it until you start to get the experience you need. Along the way you'll come across some real rubbish that was still popular and some well crafted stuff that wasn't. So don't give up, just keep doing it.

Even the very best songwriters write junk some of the time. We're no exception.

Here's a quote from a songwriting forum:

"If you wan't to see really good lyric writing, look no further than Bob Dylan. If you want to see some really bad lyrics, look no further than Bob Dylan"...


And here's another:

"The cutting of the gem has to be finished before you can see whether it shines." Leonard Cohen, explaining why he wrote nearly 60 verses for one song and then threw out the bad ones, which he said take just as long to write as the good ones.


He went on to say that three or four of the rejects were actually pretty good, but just didn't fit the needs of the song, and the rest really were just pretty bad. If Leonard Cohen can admit to churning out pages of mediocre stuff that doesn't fly then I feel a lot better about not always hitting the mark myself. Just as Grimtraveller says, sometimes you nails something in one way, sometimes in another, and often you miss. But the only way forward is to write and write and write. It's no different from putting the work in to play guitar - it takes plenty of time and practice. Just because we can hum doesn't mean we can play guitar, and just because we can write forum posts doesn't mean we can do lyrics. They're different skills that just need working on for rather longer than we first hoped. :)

I'd suggest starting simple and not heading straight for the masterpiece. One of the usual newcomer mistakes is to write lame poetry that they think might be lyrics, but have no musical match to anything. A few well chosen words or phrases that match the pulse of the music and fit the key words over the right beats will beat a load of rambling pseudo 'deepness' any day. If you do best with light funny stuff then don't knock it, start the business of learning the craft there and move to other areas later.

Good luck.

Chris
 
Keep a little note pad & pen in your pocket & when you hear, see or think of something interesting/clever/odd just write it down.
Buy a rhyming dictionary.
If any of the things you write down can hang from those things you hum start from there and see if it starts a chain.
Nonsense lyrics abound, deep & meaningful lyrics are sometimes someone else's nonesense that seems to register with another.
Write stuff, re work it, keep it, cut & paste, beg, borrow and steal.
As an exercise rewrite the lyrics to a song you know well.
You'll have the metre, rhyming scheme & melody so all you need to do is substitute the words that are there with words that SOUND good (you can get into read well and are D&M when you are confident).
You could also try collaborating with some one. Elton found Bernie - neither was much without the other in terms of songwriting (& that was proven when they split) but together they were far more than the sum of their parts. I collborate bacuse I have no melodic sense. I can write words and chord progressions but not that crucial bit so I work with others. Here's an example of my most recent collaboration with JoeyM as vocalist & melody writer, GregL as percussionist & Ido1957 as lead player. Together we achieve something quite special that I could never do on my own, (oh, I'm a stickler for using never properly as in not ever, past, present or future). I recognise the fact & work with what I have:
 
Last summer, my two kids were trying to come up with a song about themselves called "The ultra brothers" but it never really went anywhere and they kept jumping from one unfinished piece to another. But I wanted to write a song with that title about them. I just couldn't get the phrase "the ultra brothers" out of my head. But neither could I think what to write. So one day in the park, I just thought I'd start with the first thing that came into my head. And the first thing that came was "Still coping with debt, nicotine silhouette" ! Absolutely nothing to do with two kids aged 6 and 9 ! But from that moment, I knew I had it because a melody accompanied the line and a meter was in place. I wasn't sure if that line would stay {in the end it did} but I was confident I'd write some verses and the song was already starting down a bizarre road. So the song turned into a mystical reflection of them and their ways but if you looked at the lyric, you wouldn't know it.
 
You don't need to make your lyrics incredibly deep. And if you're trying really hard at it, then chances are that they are gonna feel forced and probably just not good. At least that what I find in my lyrics. If I try to hard on an idea I usually end up hating what I've come up with. Honestly, my favorite lyrics are straight forward, no metaphors, no rhymes, no BS. Just say what you want to say and I think that listeners will more easily relate with your music that way. For me just just being straight forward and not trying to be too cute produces the best results. I hope this helps and Good Luck!



Jon
 
If anything, you can make your songs more interesting by writing lyrics which don't really hint at being about one particular subject and are open to interpretation. There's nothing worse than lyrics which are self-explanatory.
 
There's nothing worse than lyrics which are self-explanatory.
Oh, I don't know. Songs are a mixed bag and sometimes, you're not interested in letting someone interpret. You want to say "THIS !" Other times you want to be mysterious so you disguise what you're really saying in fancy ducks and let the listener interpret till they fly. Zillions of great and shitty songs are self explanatory. And zillions aren't. And some that appear to be aren't. It's a mixed bag.
 
Oh, I don't know. Songs are a mixed bag and sometimes, you're not interested in letting someone interpret. You want to say "THIS !" Other times you want to be mysterious so you disguise what you're really saying in fancy ducks and let the listener interpret till they fly. Zillions of great and shitty songs are self explanatory. And zillions aren't. And some that appear to be aren't. It's a mixed bag.

Yeah I know, well what I mean is a lyric that starts out with something like "I'm in love with you and I don't know what to do" is just so basic and obvious. I've probably done it now, I bet there's two dozen number ones that start with more or less that exact line.
 
+1 to all who contributed here with their thoughts.

Once you start writing, don't edit until you've finished with the muse. Don't think.

You don't have to be deep. "Ziggy played guitar" wasn't deep.

Just keep working at it, a small notebook in your pocket, an mp3 player with a microphone, anything to get those ideas down when the muse strikes ... and she will strike, usually unexpectedly.
 
You don't have to be deep. "Ziggy played guitar" wasn't deep.
Oh, I don't know. A gay space alien challenging the current fads, fashions, traditions and conventions through the medium of rock and roll with a human band called the Spiders from Mars {when they were really from Hull and used to be called The Rats} is all summed up in that line. Pretty deep to me ! :D
 
Oh, I don't know. A gay space alien challenging the current fads, fashions, traditions and conventions through the medium of rock and roll with a human band called the Spiders from Mars {when they were really from Hull and used to be called The Rats} is all summed up in that line. Pretty deep to me ! :D
Believe it or not, I have the Spiders album on my mp3 player right now. It was my favourite album as a teenager. I always thought Lady Stardust and 5 Years were deep, but never thought the rest were.

TO BE PLAYED AT MAXIMUM VOLUME!
 
The album that precedes it is my favourite Bowie one, "Hunky Dory". It's a surprizing fusion of lyrical depth and flippancy, breathtaking melodic scope and vision and some wonderful piano drenched stuff. "Ziggy" was something of a reaction to that. The band scaled down and simplified their playing and got louder. Also part of the reason was that Rick Wakeman decided not to become a Spider after all that lovely playing on the album and joined Yes so the band was down to it's original 3 pieces {although Mike Garson tinkles the ivories on "Ziggy" in places}.
 
Hunky Dory became my favourite Bowie album shortly after I got it (I used to think it came out after Spiders). I always thought he must have been really happy to write some of the songs on it, like Kooks. But then I got drawn into the rock of Queen Bitch, and as I matured I was pulled into Quicksand, which was deep! and reminded me of Cygnet Committee. And finally, I fell in love with the weirdness that was Bewlay Brothers. That album has been on my playlist for many years, longer than Ziggy Stardust. What a genius!
 
Hunky Dory is my fav Bowie LP also. Life on Mars!!!! Now those lyrics are Bowie cut ups, (or seem like it - could be artfully faked I suppose), that create beauty from accident, tension and obscurity. The arrangements on the album are brilliant - from rock to pop opera. On that album some lyrics are stories, some are observations, other are hommages and still others are abstract constructions using brown paper and flour based glue. There's some faux heaviness, some clever word play and some charming idles.
Lyric writing lessons - Hunky Dory has a large swag of 'em. All we need now is a master class in HEAVY metal (but not too Demons & Wizards), one in hard rock (perhaps Budgie's talent for song titles as a side bar) another in protest/agit pop (bring Bob, Pete Seeger, Woody, Billy B & the early singles of Gang of Four), Gothic/Murder (with Mr Cave, Polly Jane & a few others) & doom, ( Ian Cutis, Leonard Cohen around Songs of Love & Hate plus a whole bunch of doomsayers I don't know). All that's missing is how to write about love without being mawkish, (Ido1957 could give a workshop on that one).
 
Back
Top