I'm kind of bummed, and here's why.

[lo.fi.love]

I really like this website and I've been coming here for about four years. But I stop reading this forum and don't come back for weeks when I check in and see things devolving to ego fights and trolling.

I don't have time to click through pages of meta-discussion and politics, bickering about what's appropriate to post and where, and I'm tired of people coming in to agitate the Analog Only crowd with old saws about digital vs analog, under the guise of it being "useful information". If you want to write informative articles on why your methods are better than ours, then please do it, just on your own website on your own time.

We are here to discuss our passions, hobbies, and for some of us, our livelihoods. If you don't share our passion and have nothing to contribute, please find another place to post your comments. It's a poor use of your time and it discourages people from reading and contributing here and in other forums on homerecording.com.

We really like this website and this forum, and we are real people with real lives. Please show us respect by not being a negative presence - there's enough of that on the Web.

Thanks.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

^^

Well said. And near sticky worthy too!

Cheers!

 

[sr71rules]

I agree 100%.

Let's be honest, if you are interested in recording, or even in live sound, you cannot be unaware of all of the digital options available to you. I would wager large sums of money that everyone in this forum is aware of digital recording.. we have chosen a different method. Many of us Analogians are not even 100% analog. (Wait.. you mean both methods have strengths and can be used together?)


I don't have the time to dig through all the trolling posts either..I just want to be able to have discussions with like minded people about the analog aspects of my studio and workflow. Call it whatever you want. I'm not working in recording to be the next Mutt Lange...I do this because I love it! I love the spinning reels. I love the sound of it. Frankly, I enjoy the detail work of getting things running well and sounding great. The journey of analog, for me, is part of the enjoyment!

This gives me an idea for another forum topic...

Anyway... well said Lo.Fi.

 

[grimtraveller]

I don't have time to click through pages of meta-discussion and politics, bickering about what's appropriate to post and where

But that's simply the way human beings are. When was the last time you were involved in a freely chosen discussion/conversation that stuck rigidly to the first thing you began speaking about with absolutely no deviation whatsoever ? You may not want pages of "meta discussion" and it can be really tiresome, I don't dispute that, but none of us controls how another person sees a discussion. And it is natural for one particular point or statement to spark off a train of thought in someone else that takes that conversation to other places.

I'm tired of people coming in to agitate the Analog Only crowd with old saws about digital vs analog, under the guise of it being "useful information". If you want to write informative articles on why your methods are better than ours, then please do it, just on your own website on your own time.

The thing that I find about both the pro analog and pro digital camps is that you are both as bad as one another and neither side can see it. Sometimes, there are none so blind as those that cannot see. It seems to me as one standing both within and without both groupings, that there are protagonists among both camps that like to lord it over the other and others who are in need of validation for the choice they've decided to make.
The recent "Does analog move more air" thread that ran to pages and pages and pages was a case in point. But you know, as long as analoggers continue to state preference as fact {"analog is warmer"/"analog is better"/"analog is more accurate" etc}, digitizers are going to wade in and attempt to counteract and the the saga just continues. And as long as digitizers drop unsubtle comments that in effect categorize analoggers as dinosaurs who like to do things the hard, old, outmoded way, analoggers will react defensively and dig their heels in, stating preference as fact........It's a colliding circle.
The reality here is that some that you might categorize as 'trolling' aren't - they'd be looking in the analog forum because something of interest would've caught their eye. I'm not defending trolls [Grimtraveller, attorney to the trolls !] because I agree with you about them, but there are still people who have a sufficient enough interest in things analog, even though they record digitally {Some of your own members have been admitting to this, recently}. And as such, some of those will challenge statements or premises that they hold not to be true. Just because you dispute analog is more accurate {or whatever is being disputed at the time} doesn't mean you're saying it's crap. That kind of reasoning needs to permeate both camps, if you ask me.......

We really like this website and this forum, and we are real people with real lives. Please show us respect by not being a negative presence

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way so forgive me if I seem arrogant or confrontational, but I've seen a few sentiments like this recently, stemming from the analog forum and it feels like what's being said is "If you don't agree with us, you really shouldn't be here". That, to me, is disrespectful.
This is a recording website and as far as I'm concerned, things can be learned from those that record, regardless of how they do it. Would I want a 4 track, single input cassette portastudio ? No, but I sure as it snows in the north of England in April can learn stuff from someone using one. Would I want a fancy computer rig with all manner of soft and hardware and unlimited tracks ? No, but I sure as London buses stink on a rainy day can learn from those with them.
I utilize nearly all the forums, to learn, debate, share, advize, ask, jest, discuss and sometimes, yes, argue. And I doubt I'm alone. Both ways.

 

[sr71rules]

The bit that is tiresome, for me, is not the bit about people having differing opinions, its that people can't see that different doesn't mean wrong.

Re-reading Lo.Fi's post, I can see where you could take offense at the us vs. them mentality. It can be read as sort of a 'Get off my Lawn' post. I didn't take it that way when I read it but I can see how it could be. I would agree with you though grimtraveller, that the bickering does come from both sides.

I would love to see all the discussion about 'which is better' go away. Any reasoned discussion about both will inevitable have pros and cons but in a web forum people are generally unable to handle that level of discussion.

The problem I see at the moment is a lack of respect and a sort of backbiting attitude aimed at just making the other camp feel stupid. It's childish at best and really disgusting. Can't we use moderation to nip much of this in the bud though as it happens?

 

[grimtraveller]

"Get your *^%king jumbo jet off my airport !"

I would love to see all the discussion about 'which is better' go away.

Same here. In our game, the words "best" and "better" are red flags to a bull from Barcelona. Were Deep Purple better than Led Zeppelin ? Was Black Sabbath really better than Nazareth ? I'll listen all day and all night to reasons why one person prefers something over something else. But as soon as you get to "better" and then start trying to justify it, "Adios !".
A paintbrush and a roller are both capable of leaving a door or room brilliantly painted.

Any reasoned discussion about both will inevitable have pros and cons but in a web forum people are generally unable to handle that level of discussion.

That's what I marvel at. Generally speaking, the people here are mature, at least in terms of age. We've left the playground. But maybe some left it kicking and screaming and the internet enables them to go back to it and be Pete Pan {he's hipper than Peter}.
I'm interested in the pros and cons of all the recording systems and how people do what they do. Having experienced both, I happen to think there's alot of crossover and carryover both ways.

 

[heatmiser]

Was Black Sabbath really better than Nazareth ?

Uh....yes.

 

[Beck]

There are surely creative ways we can continue to try, but looking at the join dates of many members here I know some don’t know what we’ve been through in years past with trolling and harassment. It used to be a lot worse, and the moderating in HR in general was for all practical purposes nonexistent. There are still a couple holdouts that can’t leave this forum alone and see it as an easy target for some kind of axe they have to grind. We’ve been dealing with some literally for years.

We often have a dilemma: We have a couple here that prey on newer members trying to mislead them about the same old issues that have long been settled for most of us. When someone is deliberately trying to stir things up we can either choose to sit back and watch it happen or we can let the members they are targeting know that certain individuals aren’t being genuine and they aren’t part of this tribe. They’re trolling like they always have, but they know enough to fool the uninitiated into thinking they know something.

Why do people troll and try to cause trouble on web forums? We may never know, but we do know they do and some apparently have chosen to make a career out of it. Suffice it to say there are and always have been a handful of bad apples at HR that get a kick out of it. Whether they are wrong or not technically speaking about a given topic is not as much an issue is that they’re wrong-headed for trolling. They’re not honestly trying to exchange ideas… they’re here to abuse and get some darkness out of their systems.

The longer you’ve been a member of this forum the more frustrating it is. Some of the bad apples have gone away, others have been banned; still others are banned specifically from the Analog Only Forum, and some keep coming back with alts. We have a long history of people swooping in here to give the regular members a hard time. Knowing that may help people understand why some of us react so strongly to certain members and their provocations. They’re trying to ruin the forum for us. They’re trying to cause difficulties. Believe me we’ve tried reasoning and mild approaches over the years, including sending PM’s and that sort of thing. Some people really aren’t interested in finding common ground or peace. I know it’s hard for most of us to understand people like that, but they’re out there. If people have ideas on how to deal with them please give it a go. And yes, we’ve tried ignoring them too.

 

[lo.fi.love]

I'm reading through everyone's responses right now, but I want to clarify a couple of things.

1. I'm not at all against discussing "the digital option", however it is so not productive to come into a thread on, say, mastering an analog recording to lacquer, and chime in with "Well you know you're delusional to want to master it all analog" or something to that effect. It's a matter of staying on topic and not wielding an opinion like a weapon, and being respectful toward other readers.

2. I'm a little disappointed that us Analog Only people then engage the trolls and give them what they want. Do you people not have older siblings, or were you home schooled, or something? Do you know that giving fuel to a bully makes things worse??

3. This forum is called Analog Only after all, and it's the most appropriate and helpful place to ask questions about analog audio. So don't give anyone here grief if they want to discuss only analog options, because we come here to discuss these topics.

What I'm trying to say is that we have so much more say over keeping this a friendly, polite, and respectful discussion group than I think some of our members would believe. It's like picking up litter, or giving someone directions - It costs nothing and it makes this a better place.

 

[mdainsd]

Im pretty new here. When I joined I thought to myself what a great resource I had found. Not so much anymore. Dont get me wrong there are some great people in this sub-forum with alot to offer. But more and more they are lost in the noise.

The one thing that I would find helpful for me to get the most out of this forum, would be an "ignore" function. I'll read anyones posts until im conviced they have an agenda or are just pathetic trolls, at which time I would welcome an ignore poster button to click on.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I dislike the trolling quite a bit and I especially dislikethose who show a real lack of respect for other's opinions. That's what'll usually set me off.

having said that ..... it takes literally seconds to skip past posts that don't have info i want to hear.
And pretty quickly I learn who is likely to post that way and simply put them on ignore.
I always have a dozen or so people on ignore.

While I understand the distaste for that sort of behavior I personally cannot agree that it's that big a deal ....... sorry ..... but skipping over irritating posts is not difficult nor is using the ignore function.

The one thing that I would find helpful for me to get the most out of this forum, would be an "ignore" function. I'll read anyones posts until im conviced they have an agenda or are just pathetic trolls, at which time I would welcome an ignore poster button to click on.

As you probably gathered from my above post ......there is an ignore function ..... just go to your profile and look for the ignore list.
I always have people on ignore ........ problem solved!

 

[mdainsd]

Thank you so much!

 

[Lt. Bob]

Thank you so much!

you're very welcome ........ now, when I inevitably become a prick, you'll be able to wash me away like the early morning dew!

 

[lo.fi.love]

While I understand the distaste for that sort of behavior I personally cannot agree that it's that big a deal ....... sorry ..... but skipping over irritating posts is not difficult nor is using the ignore function.

You're totally right and I agree with you, but would you agree that this kind of preventable behavior makes the Analog Only forum far less inviting?

And, if you're here to find and read useful information, doesn't it suck to have to do that over, and over, and over again, just to get to the information you need? Wouldn't something easier than that be really helpful?

But it's the really disruptive kind of stuff I want to address, like when a thread I'm following gets taken over by readers who want to put other people down. We're old enough and mature enough to do better, and I'm complaining personally as a reader that I really hate having to dig through other people bragging about how big their ---- is just to find out if I want to buy a particular mic preamp.

 

[Lt. Bob]

You're totally right and I agree with you, but would you agree that this kind of preventable behavior makes the Analog Only forum far less inviting?

Or, if you're here for information, doesn't it suck to have to do that over, and over, and over again, just to get to the information you need? Wouldn't something easier than that be really helpful?

.

of course I do agree with that.

but realities in life do not often correspond with how we wish things would be.

Having experienced quite a few forums I gotta say ...... I really don't care much for the ones that really clamp down on behavior either so I suppose it's just a matter of personal priorities.

I can't disagree with your points ........ but having been a member here for 13 years I feel that I must warn you ...... it is what it is and it's not really gonna change much ...... it hasn't in the 13 years I've been here and i can't see it changing much in the future.

 

[lonewhitefly]

But that's simply the way human beings are. When was the last time you were involved in a freely chosen discussion/conversation that stuck rigidly to the first thing you began speaking about with absolutely no deviation whatsoever ? You may not want pages of "meta discussion" and it can be really tiresome, I don't dispute that, but none of us controls how another person sees a discussion. And it is natural for one particular point or statement to spark off a train of thought in someone else that takes that conversation to other places.The thing that I find about both the pro analog and pro digital camps is that you are both as bad as one another and neither side can see it. Sometimes, there are none so blind as those that cannot see. It seems to me as one standing both within and without both groupings, that there are protagonists among both camps that like to lord it over the other and others who are in need of validation for the choice they've decided to make.
The recent "Does analog move more air" thread that ran to pages and pages and pages was a case in point. But you know, as long as analoggers continue to state preference as fact {"analog is warmer"/"analog is better"/"analog is more accurate" etc}, digitizers are going to wade in and attempt to counteract and the the saga just continues. And as long as digitizers drop unsubtle comments that in effect categorize analoggers as dinosaurs who like to do things the hard, old, outmoded way, analoggers will react defensively and dig their heels in, stating preference as fact........It's a colliding circle.
The reality here is that some that you might categorize as 'trolling' aren't - they'd be looking in the analog forum because something of interest would've caught their eye. I'm not defending trolls [Grimtraveller, attorney to the trolls !] because I agree with you about them, but there are still people who have a sufficient enough interest in things analog, even though they record digitally {Some of your own members have been admitting to this, recently}. And as such, some of those will challenge statements or premises that they hold not to be true. Just because you dispute analog is more accurate {or whatever is being disputed at the time} doesn't mean you're saying it's crap. That kind of reasoning needs to permeate both camps, if you ask me.......
I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way so forgive me if I seem arrogant or confrontational, but I've seen a few sentiments like this recently, stemming from the analog forum and it feels like what's being said is "If you don't agree with us, you really shouldn't be here". That, to me, is disrespectful.
This is a recording website and as far as I'm concerned, things can be learned from those that record, regardless of how they do it. Would I want a 4 track, single input cassette portastudio ? No, but I sure as it snows in the north of England in April can learn stuff from someone using one. Would I want a fancy computer rig with all manner of soft and hardware and unlimited tracks ? No, but I sure as London buses stink on a rainy day can learn from those with them.
I utilize nearly all the forums, to learn, debate, share, advize, ask, jest, discuss and sometimes, yes, argue. And I doubt I'm alone. Both ways.

There are people who come in here for the sole purpose of 'ruffling feathers'. When they are transparent, it's easy to ingore them. The problem is they ease their way in with valid comments and even some insight, then their truth emerges. By that time, it is too late and we've been had.

Without purpose, this forum is meaningless. The purpose of this forum is to discuss analog recording. There are plenty of other places to go to talk about 'General Recording' or digital recording. There is nowhere else to go discuss analog only recording. So staying on topic is very important to the integrity of this board.

Whether or not 'analog only' and 'digital only' people are jerks and narrow-minded is totally beside the point. If there's a place to say 'digital is crap', it's here. If there's a place to say 'analog is crap', it's not here.

 

[miroslav]

When someone is deliberately trying to stir things up we can either choose to sit back and watch it happen or we can let the members they are targeting know that certain individuals aren’t being genuine and they aren’t part of this tribe.


Why do people troll and try to cause trouble on web forums? We may never know, but we do know they do and some apparently have chosen to make a career out of it.

You can also do a "Report Post" by clicking on the triangle icon in the bottom left corner of every post.

AFA why some people get so much pleasure out of intentionally disrupting an on-topic thread just to derail it....

...if you ever find out, let me know.

 

[Jon Stoppable]

just to find out if I want to buy a particular mic preamp.

That's easy. *If* the mic preamp you have has a suitably low noise figure and adequate gain and headroom for your intended application, then it doesn't matter much which one you choose. Are they a little different? Yeah, but not enough to worry about.

If you groove on playing with loading of mics via variable input impedance, then you might choose a preamp that has that feature. That can also be done with an inline device such as a resistor or a transformer if you find that you have or like a preamp without that feature.

If you're looking to generate a bit of even-order distortion you might select a box that advertises that feature--most other devices will overload symmetrically, which means odd-order harmonics only or primarily. So you will have to shop for even.

 

[miroslav]

Having experienced quite a few forums I gotta say ...... I really don't care much for the ones that really clamp down on behavior either so I suppose it's just a matter of personal priorities.

I agree with your point.

I know a few folks here have complained about the occasional deleted post or thread (it's usually something offensive to others)....but all in all, I think HR gives members HUGE leeway compared to many other sites.

I left one BBS where even the smallest off-color joke...just basic kidding aournd...was heavily frowned upon.
They use to delete EVERYTHING on that BBS that didn't fit some specific style.

My own views about deleting stuff or "clamping down" focuses mostly on posts/threads that are *intended* to offend someone. We really don't need that.
But in the heat of the moment, when folks are discussing something, it's OK for people to be a bit more candid with their feelings, and in my own mod status here, I've never given out any infractions or bans for that kind of stuff....even when it was aimed directly at me.
There has to be some personality to a BBS...and a little BB'ing is OK just to break up the monotony from time to time....but it shouldn't be done to *intentionally derail on-topic threads*.

 

[lonewhitefly]

I don't know ... The moderated thing would probably be better for a sub-forum such as this. Imagine this forum being archived as a database of information ... then imagine the crap someone would have to sift-through to organize such a database. That 'analog air' thread derailed not only into an analog vs. digital debate, but ultimately into a 'which kind of sauerkraut should I use on my sausage?' conversation.