I'm a bit lost and sure would appreciate some help...

F

flatcat

New member
Hello - I'm a newbie to this forum, but not a newbie to recording.

I've looked at the SAE site, at Ethan Winer's site, at John's site...and I look at my room and I'm just more confused. :)

Please forgive my inexactitude - I'm looking more for general advice, rather than specific details. Also, it's tough to lug ladders up here. :)

I mainly record myself (though I have had groups come up, and hope for more in the future). My setup is in the former attic of my house, which was finished in the 1970's. The house was built in 1888. The room itself is probably 18' x 25' on the floors, but there are a couple of built out and built in closets, so it's irregular. The room is approximately a prism in shape, except that the front has two gables. Lots of angles. The top of the ceiling - that is, the top of the roof - is probably 18' tall. The angle of the roof is quite steep - on the order of 45 degrees. There's also a chimney in the middle of the room that goes up to the roof. Other than that, the room is basically a loft-like space. The floor is linoleum over sheetrock. The walls are sheetrock or plaster. There is some carpeting on the floor. It's actually a great room to record in - but I'm finding it's hell to mix in.

My setup is in a corner of this room, basically for neatness' sake. I recently got a pair of Mackie 824s. Based on what I've read (and the pieces of it I've understood), I think I have some severe bass problems in the corner of this room. The mixes I've worked on are not translating well to other systems.

So I'm trying to figure out what the best way to approach the problem is. I'm considering:

* leaving things where they are and trying to acoustically treat the corner to the best of my ability, or

* moving my setup within the room, which would involve perhaps some portable walls (the Auralex MaxWalls, perhaps) to keep the mess in check and to provide some acoustic treatment, plus add a few of Ethan's mini panels (which, by the way, look like a great bargain);

A couple of questions -

* I know that it's better to keep monitors away from walls - and right now, the backs are pointing into the room (the nearest wall is 15' away or so - where the monitors point is towards me, plus behind me there are bookcases, a desk, and assorted boxes, mix stands and whatever in the corner - the wall is probably a good 6' from the speakers) - and I know that corners are bass gathering places. Will simply moving more forward into the room make the bass problem better or worse, generally speaking?

* Since the room is so large, does it make sense for me to consider building either a temporary or semi-permanent 'room within a room' as a control room? Or does keeping the setup as a large room make more sense, given the size of the room?

* Because of the strange nature of this room - it's size, the angles, etc - would it make sense to hire an acoustician rather than trying a bass trap here, an auralex wall there, etc.? I am feeling pretty lost in trying to understand all this.

Thanks a lot for any thoughts anyone might care to share.
 
Well, hiring someone would definately take the pain out of it for yourself. There are a few people here that might take on that work, I'll let them speak for themselves.

If you want to do serious recording up there, its generally better to make a console room, and a recording room. The recording room can be a live room, with acoustical reflections, or a dead room, with minimal reflections.

I'm having trouble picturing your space, whats the chances of you putting together a simple diagram with floor dimensions as well as ceiling heights in different areas? That would help tremendously. If you have a scanner, you can sketch it then scan it, or if you really had to, you could use microsoft paint (which comes with windows). Even if you can't draw it to scale, thats okay, because the measurements you put on the diagram will give us a fair perspective of your space.

You have a lot of "air" above you, 18' is a nice amount of space... even if you carve up some smaller rooms in there, I'd try to leave the air above you open to some degree.

After you do up a diagram, let us know how "serious" you are about doing this. There are less costly, "acceptable" solutions to building a studio, as well as more costly "the absolute right way" to do the same. If this is a hobby for you, some treatments and construction is good, and you spend the rest of your money on gear :D
 
Flat,

> I'll try and put a drawing or two together. <

Yes, that would help.

Unless you need isolation between recording and mixing rooms, you may be better off leaving the room large. That does mean more acoustic treatment because there are more surfaces, but a large room is generally better than a small one. That advice may change when I see your drawing.

--Ethan
 
Yeah,

Those 824s are giving me hell with the lows as well.

Ethan's mini traps seems like a good start for me.
I am decoupling first though, just to see if I can hear a difference.


Malcolm
 
Ethan - thanks for responding. I'm really attracted to your mini-traps in part because they're non-permanent - important because of an eventual renovation.

The room is 24 x 24, and the ceiling is as best as I can measure without being able to get a ladder up here are 14'.

I'm a serious hobbyist - that is, I have done some work up here that will be available commercially, and I'd like to be able to do more.

This morning, I threw Sting's Brand New Day record on the studio monitors - and I know the first track, 1000 Days, has huge bass. In my current setup, the bass is almost non-existent - a lot of it is being lost, presumably through phase cancellation.

There is also furniture up here that's not in the drawing - a computer desk in the upper right corner (by the stairwell down), a futon couch and a futon chair and a TV in the area between the chimney and the 'W', a drum kit in the lower right corner parallel to my setup.

I'd like whatever I end up doing to be portable; I'd also like to have both speakers on my left-hand side as I mix (because I only hear out of my left ear - it's a drag to move a fader and turn my head sideways :) ); and I like the idea of keeping the space relatively open (that is, not building a control room per se), in part because of the future renovation plan and in part because my family uses the room from time to time. But not as much as I do. :)

I hope this drawing makes some sense. Again, thanks for any thoughts anyone has - I am really having a hard time wrapping my head around all the information that everyone's offered.

Maybe I should just rebuild my garage.... :)
 

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Fatcat,

here is what I started, and didn't finished. Wanted your thoughts on this.

Since you have two stairwells up, I'd seal the smaller one thats in the way of the console room, because having the console room exposed to the higher ceilings will make for a much nicer mixing area.

Once you decide where you want the console room and the overall size/shape of it, the rest of the space can be carved up almost any way you like.

You might notice a faint hint of your original drawing behind mine, I did that deliberately to illustrate what you'd have to whack out of there to make room.

I assumed the storage spaces are removable with a little elbow grease, and not part of the structure.

Its just as easy to flip the console room shape along the "Y" axis, and put it at the top diagram.

Just a few thoughts.
 

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First and foremost - thank you very much, frederic. Wow!

frederic said:
Since you have two stairwells up, I'd seal the smaller one thats in the way of the console room, because having the console room exposed to the higher ceilings will make for a much nicer mixing area.
Click to expand...

I should have probably been more specific about the future renovation - sometime within the next 3-5 years, we'll be replacing the roof. When we do, we'll be building a full bath over what is now the stairway at the top of the diagram. The other staircase - which is currently a spiral stair - will be converted into a flight of stairs with a platform in the middle. At the moment, it's a cedar-lined walk-in closet, and also my isolation booth. :D

My wife, the awesome mrsflatcat™, has decided that in order to make the house a better investment when we sell it, we'll be turning this space - our third floor - into a master bedroom suite with a full bath. She and I won't use it as such - I'll continue to use it as a studio space. But the layout will change, at least as she's picturing it (including skylights on the sloped ceiling on the left-hand side of the diagram).

This was in part why I was considering more portable or easily movable setups - things like the Mini-Traps, the Auralex Max-Walls, and so on. When it comes time to rip apart the current room, I'll need to reconfigure to the new layout. Again, though, it's several years in the future at this point.

I assumed the storage spaces are removable with a little elbow grease, and not part of the structure.
Click to expand...

Yes, they're drywall on studs with perhaps a skimcoat of plaster. They're easily removed. Compared to the renovation we're doing on our second floor at the moment, it'll be cake...we've stripped our only full bath to the studs because we have to replace the cast iron vent pipe that runs from the basement through the roof. Ay yai yai - I should've been a plumber. :D Oh, and of course, while we have the paint bucket out, we're gutting our kids' bedrooms too and will be rebuilding those.

The good news is that our electrician is going to run a separate circuit up to the third floor just for the studio area. :)

I feel sort-of like a jerk saying all that, since you put all this effort into transforming the space. Thanks a lot for the ideas - you never know - maybe it'll be a more valuable house because something good was recorded in it. :) And maybe mrsflat will decide that a third floor studio will be a better investment. :) Or I may be able to combine this layout with the aforementioned movable/portable walls and so on.

Thank you again, very much.
 
First and foremost - thank you very much, frederic. Wow!
Click to expand...

You're welcome.

I must have missed your saying temporary structures.

If thats the case, instead of building non-parallel walls, build gobos, partitions and other non-permanent structures whereas you can move things around to your liking.

Another option to consider, since you won't have the high expensive of major construction (since it will be a bedroom, after all), you might want to wander your browser over to whisperbooth.com and purchase a $2-3K vocal booth. They have small booths that are portable (portable being it takes four guys with good backs to move the friggen thing), but at least you can have a really good recording booth, and take it with you should you ever move.

Hope that helps!
 
Flats,

> The room is 24 x 24, and the ceiling is as best as I can measure without being able to get a ladder up here are 14'. <

That's basically square, which is not good. But with enough acoustic treatment you can make it quite usable for serious mixing.

> In my current setup, the bass is almost non-existent - a lot of it is being lost, presumably through phase cancellation. <

Yes, that's exactly the cause.

> I like the idea of keeping the space relatively open (that is, not building a control room per se) <

I have one large room too, and it works very well for me. I don't record rock bands, just myself and friends, but I much prefer having one good large room rather than two rooms where neither is large enough for good acoustics.

> I hope this drawing makes some sense. <

It's a little difficult to understand, but I have a suggestion or two anyway. :)

I prefer placing the loudspeakers flat against the wall, especially in larger rooms like this. When they're spaced away from the wall you create a time delay between the rear (reflected) and front (direct) sound at low frequencies. And this adds yet more phase cancellation.

Even if you can hear only in one ear, will you never have others present? That's one reason to at least consider a more conventional setup.

Regardless of where you place your speakers, you'll definitely need bass trapping. If you're considering MiniTraps you'll need about eight to flatten out the low end, with all eight mounted in the room corners. More will give even better results, but eight is enough to make a big improvement.

--Ethan
 
frederic - thanks again, I really appreciate it.

Ethan, thank you also. It is a square room in terms of the floor, but I wasn't sure how the walls play into the equation. I found a couple of pictures that might give a sense of what the room is like. This one was taken standing up against the storage area at the top of the diagram. I think you can get the idea of the weird angles of the roof and the room.

It's a really cool room - and the couple of times I've recorded ensembles in it (pre-production for a singer-songwriter record, with upright bass, a couple of acoustic guitars and three singers), it sounded aces in terms of what got captured on tape.

Nothing like new monitors to reveal the shortcomings of your mixing area, though. :D

Thanks again, all, for your advice.
 

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Just an update - I ordered some of Ethan's Mini-Traps yesterday and had the pleasure of speaking with him directly on the phone. He couldn't have been nicer, and I'm looking forward to receiving them.

I'm also looking at an Auralex MAX-Wall and a Primacoustic London-type setup, if I can get someone to offer me some advice about what I might need for a larger room.

Thanks again to all for your advice!
 
Flat,

> I'm also looking at an Auralex MAX-Wall and a Primacoustic London-type setup, if I can get someone to offer me some advice about what I might need for a larger room. <

Foam is an easy way to tame mid and high frequency reflections. Rigid fiberglass is even better, and it costs a lot less too, though it's a little more work because you have to wrap it with fabric for appearance and to keep the fibers contained. But it's not that difficult. The other day I made four fabric-wrapped panels for my studio's side walls, and it took less than two hours from start to finish and they came out great.

--Ethan
 
Ethan:
Do you know if the rigid fiberglass is available at most Home Depot-like stores? Where'd you get yours? I hate to waste time running around looking for stuff.
Tony
 
Tony,

> Do you know if the rigid fiberglass is available at most Home Depot-like stores? <

No, but you can often get it from an insulation supplier. Look in your yellow pages under Insulation.

> Where'd you get yours? <

From an insulation supplier. :D

My company also sells 703 and 705-FRK just because so many people have trouble finding small quantities. Your profile doesn't list where you are located, but if you're not too far from Connecticut the shipping is not excessive.

--Ethan
 
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