I wish I'd thought of it.

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mixsit

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I stoll' this. Always love to run into folks with new ways that match my personal disgust with the current state of affairs...
Thank you Heinz. (Hope you don't mind but this is so fine...


"...What I'm trying to understand is (and not in a naiive 'this is inconceivable!' way), how exactly does the decision get made to take carefully polished mixes, and squeeze them into crap? At what point in the chain does this happen, and who EXACTLY is responsible? And why aren't the musicans et all going thermonuclear when this happens?

Sure I imagine we can continue to bag on the mastering engineers, but someone's paying their bill and I assume setting the expectation, right?

I sort of imagine a meeting going like this:

PRODUCER: "Well, here ya go, 14 carefully polished neve-loaded tracks chock full 'o experience and expertise from the best musicians and engineers in the biz. Each individual sample has been lovingly caressed into sonic utopia. Whaddya think?"

MOOK: "Holy sh*t! Those sound tremendous. Really amazing, nice work! Now I'm thinking they're ready...."
PRODUCER: "...ready for what?"
MOOK: "Well, I really think before we ship this record, we need to.... SH*T on it."
room is silent for a moment
Suddenly everyone erupts, "YES! WE MUST SH*T ON IT! BRILLIANT!"
MOOK: "Get Vlad on the line."
*
HUH? Am I missing something? Sure I get the 'loudness race' and all that, but given how many people hear the unmastered stuff and know it to be vastly superior, how can this happen? Isn't ultimately about selling the most units? Doesn't better quality help this?
:D :D
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=13673
 
Welcome to my world... I even get mixes that are already too loud and they want them louder.

I really hope that this blows over soon...

John Scrip - www.massivemastering.com
 
Massive Master said:
Welcome to my world... I even get mixes that are already too loud and they want them louder.

I really hope that this blows over soon...

John Scrip - www.massivemastering.com
Click to expand...

I agree with John. I'm getting mixes that are averaging around
-10dbfs or less headroom with clipped transients. It really limits what one can do as far as helping to shape the envelope of the sound, using techniques like multi-band compression, tape saturation effects, as well as helping to prevent quantization distortion by having room to work.

I think that part of the issue is the fletcher-munson effect where louder does sound better, however once you turn things down to the same SPL (apples to apples) you really start to hear what hypercompression does to the music when you compare it to material that hasn't been squashed to death.

There's no reason to commit to a high level on a mix (or an overall EQ for that matter), save this decision for later so that you can work with the entire collection of songs and make them fit together better.
 
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Yo All:

I'm sure that rich and full does not really equate to LOUD.

Years back, I was kind of excited because the "Electric Pruins" were playing live at a local bistro. I eased into the bar, ordered a beer, and the Pruins began to play.

However they had their amps set, the vibes hit my ears and actually hurt my eardrums. Within two swallows of beer, I had to leave before my cranium blew a fuse.

So, "loud" goes a long way back. So does sound quality. Many old movie soundtracks were done by real sound artists -- today, that quality still exists but, somehow, other forces are at work.

Can't figure out those thumping boomboosters folks put in cars. One can certainly hear the "thump" but hardly anything else. I think the Ear doctors will make lots of $$ if not already.

I guess "The customer is always right" is a sound principle but not always principles of sound management.

Green Hornet :p :D :cool: :p
 
Ted Turner eventually lost the colorization wars. This too shall pass.
 
Green Hornet, that's the key. Everybody's driving around with 18" subs in the back seats of their cars and no one can distinguish music from noise any more. People ruin their hearing and the only cure is to master the recordings for the severely hearing impaired. Maybe the next generation will get tired of their elders saying "Huh?" all the time and turn down the subs...and allow music back into society.
 
mixsit said:

HUH? Am I missing something? Sure I get the 'loudness race' and all that, but given how many people hear the unmastered stuff and know it to be vastly superior, how can this happen? Isn't ultimately about selling the most units? Doesn't better quality help this?
:D :D
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=13673
Click to expand...
There could be a correlation between the quality and quantity of drug usage to the loudness of music. Thus the loud bar scene, discos, raves, etc. etc.. People may be liking it louder because they are so comfortably numb they may not be able to hear or enjoy music any other way. When they crash they use it to escape thinking, "This music is so loud I can't hear myself think!"

You all know what the Grateful Dead fans said at the concert when they ran out of drugs, "Man, this band SuCkS".

So why does loudness sell more than quality? Well there you have it. Geez, I wonder if an economist could use this as an investment tool? Go figure...
 
I know we are all against bad mastering at the cost of too loud, but I'm going to be a bit of a pain here:

doesn't heavy modern rock, like audioslave of system Of a Down for example, need a really loud master? they have to bang out of your speakers.

I mean, what The Peppers did on Californication was a bit ridiculous, the loud master, but I think you can't master something like 'toxicity' without letting it sound really, really loud.
 
BrettB said:
I know we are all against bad mastering at the cost of too loud, but I'm going to be a bit of a pain here:

doesn't heavy modern rock, like audioslave of system Of a Down for example, need a really loud master? they have to bang out of your speakers.

I mean, what The Peppers did on Californication was a bit ridiculous, the loud master, but I think you can't master something like 'toxicity' without letting it sound really, really loud.
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Shure, there are different levels for different styles, but the bottom line still remains, at some point it gets less powerfull without some point of contrast in there.

NYMorningstar said
"You all know what the Grateful Dead fans said at the concert when they ran out of drugs, "Man, this band SuCkS". "

Ironic you should use them as your example. They were one of the most dynamic rock bands. Coming up on the Dead has if fact somewhat spoiled me to many other otherwise good (and by many other important measures better :rolleyes: :D) acts out there. After thirty or forty minutes of perfect-solid-pounding, how about some frickin SPICE! (Do you have any idea how long Phil would make you wait for a low B'?:D
 
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The sound at Dead concerts was amazing. It was crystal clear with deep booming bass and you could still hear someone talking next to you at a normal volume. It was a big lesson in loud isn't always better.
 
I didn't mean to sound down on the Dead. I was just using a borrowed metaphor to get my point across. Personally the only thing I remember about the Dead concerts in the late 60's is there was free acid givin out to the first fifty rows and it was pretty darn loud back then. Unfortunately because my life took a different(better) direction after that period I didn't get to see them again. I do agree that there has to be contrast to keep your attention in music at least with me there does. However at most rock concerts listeners are already preoccupied with booze and drugs and getting what they want, screaming loud music and they are happy with that. Go figure...
 
i think in some cases loudness is mistaken for effect and feeling....like on toxicity, i saw the video for chop suey before i heard it on cd....so i got a feeling for the song....then when i got the cd...i just turned it up to a desired headbanging happiness versus californication which i didnt care for so having it blaring at a club would make me pay no more attention to it than if it were another video on mtv that i could change the channel away from
 
distortedrumble said:
i think in some cases loudness is mistaken for effect and feeling....like on toxicity, i saw the video for chop suey before i heard it on cd....so i got a feeling for the song....then when i got the cd...i just turned it up to a desired headbanging happiness versus californication which i didnt care for so having it blaring at a club would make me pay no more attention to it than if it were another video on mtv that i could change the channel away from
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Man, I hope you don't speak in sentences like that. I've read it three times and am still not quite sure what you are trying to say:)
 
i don't necessarily agree with everything being said. i'm a "young kid" i'm 20. yes, i have 2 10" subs in my trunk. yes, they CAN make your head hurt when used to their fullest. i don't use them to fullest though. i have them to produce that extra bit of lows the 6 1/2" speakers in my car can't possibly do. yes, i do listen to things loud, but again; quality is key. so i don't sit there and blast distorted loud booming music. i setup my eq's and levels properly so that you can turn the stereo almost all the way up, not have any distortion, and still hear everything clearly.
 
"Man, I hope you don't speak in sentences like that. I've read it three times and am still not quite sure what you are trying to say"


ok let me rephrase that......

Dude, i didnt like californication from the red hot chili peppers. i dont care how loud its turned up or if carmen electra is dancing to it. Toxicity kicked ass. I got to see the video for chop suey on a small 13 inch screen tv. so the sound quality was shit. the essence of the song was good so i wanted to hear it again.
 
Record companies are just giving the masses what they want.

Example: My younger brother let his friends convince him that he needed a subwoofer system in his new car. So he spends several hundred dollars on a 1000 watt amplifier and a cabinet with 2 ten inch speakers. I heard his stock stereo and thought it had plenty of bass. I tried to convince him that he was wasting his money and instead he should just invest in some high quality speakers to replace the stock ones. Well, now he has his sub and his bass is loud as hell, but he still has stock speakers pumping out all the important frequencies, so eveything just sounds like mud. I tried to show him the err of his ways, but he insists that the stock speakers "sound fine." I just don't understand. I spent about a quarter of what he did simply replacing the stock speakers in my truck and it sounds great, punchy and clear. Jesus I'm not even out of college and I'm already bitter about "kids these days." Maybe I should get a perscription for prozac or something. I hate how some of my favorite cds keep getting trashed by this loundness trend. It's f*cking ridiculous.

The worst part is that I can't even listen to many of my cds from start to finish because of fatigue. I really like to listen to cds all the way through but it is impossible when there are absolutely no dynamics. Every song smears together with the next and the whole album just starts to sound like a big mass of noise. Of course, who listens to a whole cd anymore? All the record companies care about is getting that one hit song on the radio; everything else is just filler so they can justify charging 18 bucks for a the cd. Face it. 90% of the listening public doesn't give a crap about dynamics and audio fidelity, and even if they do it's not going to stop them from buying the cd. Even most bands are guilty of this. The music industry revolves around 3 minute songs written by people with no talent that follow a simple formula. The people that run this industry are a.) not very smart, b.) part of a complex machine driven solely by money, and c.) don't give a shit about your opinion. If you are a musician and you think you have "talent" or "something to say" or want to make something unique or beautiful GIVE UP NOW! You don't stand a chance. Everything sucks. Welcome to hell.

ooops, that got a bit out of hand. I apologize. :D

Here is a great article on the subject:
http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C
 
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kids dont want to be forced taught....showing them the error of their ways must be done in a creative fashion....now if you put 2 of those truck subwoofers in your truck and they crank out and you put your bro to shame in his car......he'll ask how you did it.....that way he learns on his own versus you telling him.

and if brett didnt understand what i just said there..I'll simplify it....

get a better system than your brother's and make him feel stupid
 
>>"get a better system than your brother's and make him feel stupid"

I think you're missing the point. I believe my system sounds much better than my brother's. It's more hifi and it also costs less because I didn't blow all my money on an huge amplifier and speaker cab. It's just not nearly as LOUD and doesn't have BASS that rattles windows of hearby houses. Of course, his system sounds like crap because he still uses his stock speakers for midrange and higher frequencies, but he doesn't care because he thinks it's much cooler that you can hear his car coming before it even reaches your street. And this is exactly the demographic that the record companies are ruining your cds for.
 
ok so you dont plan on matching him on the bass....i changed out the system in my old car before a woman ran a redlight and destroyed it.......i had a 94 ford escort wagon, with an awia cd reciever jensens in the front, back and a 10in subwoofer in the trunk area...i put bass blockers on the front and back speakers....at low volumes it was definitely not very good sounding inside the car.....but turned up around 6 or 7 and everything would crank....inside the car you could hear everything.....outside of the car you hear nothing but bass.....it was much better sounding when it was loud.....and it did piss off my neighbors....it also pissed off the hospital my mom works at.

if hes happy with his sound....let him go
 
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