gummblefish
Twitchy Wanker
Top post, Very Good read!
I will finally share some "secrets" about mixing.
- Thread starter Ford Van
- Start date
Ford Van said:Year after year after year, you prove that you are just envious of my ability to condense ideas into easy to understand essays that people LIKE to read!
He's like that with me, too.
An essay on Mixing
While many learned professors have abandoned hope of ever discovering the truth behind Mixing, I for one feel that it is still a worthy cause for examination. I really, really like Mixing. Remarkably Mixing is heralded by shopkeepers and investment bankers alike, leading many to state that Mixing is not given the credit if deserves for inspiring many of the worlds famous painters. The juxtapositioning of Mixing with fundamental economic, social and political strategic conflict draws criticism from the easily lead, many of whom blame the influence of television. Here begins my indepth analysis of the glourious subject of Mixing.
Social Factors
Comparisons between Roman Society and Medieval Society give a clear picture of the importance of Mixing to developments in social conduct. I will not insult the readers inteligence by explaining this obvious comparison any further. When Thucictholous said 'people only know one thing' [1] he created a monster which society has been attempting to tame ever since. Both tyranny and democracy are tried and questioned. Yet Mixing smells of success.
Primarily Mixing builds trust among the people. Society is powered by peer pressure, one of the most powerful forces in the world. As long as peer pressure uses its power for good, Mixing will have its place in society.
Economic Factors
The preceding section may have shed some light on society but to really understand man you must know how he spends his money. Of course, Mixing fits perfectly into the Greek-Roman model, a lovely model. Oil
Prices
Mixing
The results displayed in the graph are too clear to be ignored. Even a child could work out that oil prices, ultimately decided by politicians, will always be heavily influenced by Mixing due to its consistently high profile in the portfolio of investors. Supply Side Economic Tax Cuts Tax deductions could turn out to be a risky tactic.
Political Factors
Politics has in some areas been seen to embrace an increasing ananiathesis of intergovernmentalism leading to neo-functionalism. Placing theory on the scales of justice and weighing it against practice can produce similar results to contrasting Mixing now, and its equivalent in the 1800s.
In the words of the uncompromising Achilles Woodpecker 'Man's greatest enemy is complacency with regards to personal and political hygiene.' [2] He was first introduced to Mixing by his mother. I feel strongly that if politicians spent less time thinking about Mixing and put more effort into their family life, that we would have a very different country.
Where do we go from here? Only time will tell.
Conclusion
In my opinion Mixing has, and will continue to be a major building block for the world in which we live. It fills a hole, applauds greatness and most importantly it perseveres.
The final say goes to the award winning Elvis Clooney: 'You win some, you loose some, but Mixing wins most often.' [3]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Thucictholous - Man - Published 42 AD
[2] Woodpecker - Serving The Greats - 1990 Palmerston House Publishing
[3] It Magazine - Issue 302 - Spam Media Group
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Nah, just shade tree editorsFord Van said:Bunch of fucking literary lawyers here!
.
flatfinger
Use every dam bit!
45.5KB ON THE O'L HD . Really good stuff. As to wheter it's a rehash ; who cares? If someone is a serious student about something they read up on the subject from many different authors and sources. Some times a different choice of syntax helps to cement concepts.
FV is a good writer
kudos
FV is a good writer
kudos
The Audio Cave
New member
It's some good stuff in there, most notably the part about making a dry mix with no eq, compression or reverb as a test mix and listen to it in different places for a few days until I decide to do a "real" mix. I do that a lot.
Sometimes less is more.
Sometimes less is more.
Middleman
Professional Amateur
Little defense for Ed here. As he says 7 years ago there was zip, nada, nothing in print that covered this stuff. (Ed you should have made it into a book). This was one of the first sites up on recording in a computer. Most of the stuff available at that time was still referencing reel to reels and mixing consoles. Parallel compression was a secret back then.
The Audio Cave
New member
Again, I though the article was pretty good.
The problem with noobs trying to grab a "bag 'o mixing secrets" like that is lack of overall perspective of the process and a lack of an acute familiarity with their speakers and room. The most important thing in mixing (or learning how to mix) is to learn how to critically listen. All the tips in the world won't help if you don't know what you're listening for.
I'm by no means an expert but I'll offer some advice to some less experienced people who want to immediately (in the next couple of weeks or months) improve their mixes.
First, get some really good studio speakers and some good DA converters and then...
Listen. A lot. Then some more. Then again. Set aside about 4-5 hours a week (maybe an hour every morning M-F) to just sit at your mix position and listen to good (not squashed all to hell in mastering) quality commercial music in the genre(s) you work in. Don't get on the phone or chat with the fellas. Sit quetly alone in the sweet spot, get comfortable and listen to mixes. Turn off the phone the pager the wife and the kids. Listen. At moderate volumes.
If you have nearfields lean in, close your eyes and just listen. Focus.
Listen for depth, tone, panning and overall balance. Listen for movement (instruments or parts that rise and fall and add drama). Try to avoid being a passive listener (consumer, enjoyer, chiller) and be more of an active listener. Listen to the spaces between the instruments and/or vocals. Listen to the subtle delays or overlapping reverbs. Listen.
DON'T stop songs and rewind and review parts, listen to songs in their entirety. Every now and then throw one of your mixes up for a couple of minutes... just a couple. If you're new and learning they will suck by comparison. Even the ones you and your friends though were pretty good.
What's the point of all this?
You have to become accustomed to hearing things "right". You have to build a frame of reference so that when you mix your music you'll know when something sounds wrong (frequency balance wise or tone wise or space wise) in your room with your speakers in your genre(s). Give it a few weeks / months and compare your mixes to the previous ones, I'll bet they'll sound better.
Then go back and re-read the "Mixing Secrets" post and try to apply some of the tips. Your ears will hopefully be ready to fully appreciate some of the subtle differences they might make.
One other tip... something I do that helped my mixes GREATLY...
I mix first thing in the morning while my ears are their very best. I intentionally schedule my mixes for early morning. It helped a LOT. Honestly, if you want to do your best why not use your ears when they are their best? Unless you stayed up until 4am smoking dope and drinking you should be physically, mentally and aurally at your very best about an hour after you wake up. As you get better it won't matter as much but you still have to prepare to mix by RESTING YOUR EARS. Mix at 7pm? Turn off the TV at 5 and read a book or something.
Here's one other important thing I learned a long time ago...
Never turn a EQ knob or patch in a comp or anything unless you have a specific clearly identifyable purpose. Inexperienced mixers tend to EQ way too much. You have to train yourself to be disciplined enough to analyze WHAT you need to do (by listening critically), and then deciding how to approach that and ONLY that.
This is why the tip from the "secrets" post about doing a dry mix with no EQ and living with it for a day or two is such a good idea. It gives you time to analyze WHAT may be needed if you're not sure. It also gives you time for a fresh listen and new perspective BEFORE you make those critical decisions.
When you do that (listen in the car AND boombox AND home stereo AND ipod if you can) take notes and later try to do only the things you noted and leave the rest alone. Eventually you'll hear all those things earlier and better.
Finally...
NEVER stop listening. Good mix engineers will sit down and listen to their favorite albums on the home stereo and analyze every nuance and make mental notes. Also ... update and refresh your frame of reference WHILE you mix. Rip some of those reference CD's and use something close to reference while you mix. Eventually you won't need them but for now they will make a HUGE difference. I sometimes will play 30sec to a minute of a similar commercial song 3-4-5 times or more during a particulary dense or difficult mix to compare to what I think I hear. You can't be afraid to do that, it helps.
As time goes by you'll need less and less of that though. This post went longer than I intended, I hope it helps somebody.
The problem with noobs trying to grab a "bag 'o mixing secrets" like that is lack of overall perspective of the process and a lack of an acute familiarity with their speakers and room. The most important thing in mixing (or learning how to mix) is to learn how to critically listen. All the tips in the world won't help if you don't know what you're listening for.
I'm by no means an expert but I'll offer some advice to some less experienced people who want to immediately (in the next couple of weeks or months) improve their mixes.
First, get some really good studio speakers and some good DA converters and then...
Listen. A lot. Then some more. Then again. Set aside about 4-5 hours a week (maybe an hour every morning M-F) to just sit at your mix position and listen to good (not squashed all to hell in mastering) quality commercial music in the genre(s) you work in. Don't get on the phone or chat with the fellas. Sit quetly alone in the sweet spot, get comfortable and listen to mixes. Turn off the phone the pager the wife and the kids. Listen. At moderate volumes.
If you have nearfields lean in, close your eyes and just listen. Focus.
Listen for depth, tone, panning and overall balance. Listen for movement (instruments or parts that rise and fall and add drama). Try to avoid being a passive listener (consumer, enjoyer, chiller) and be more of an active listener. Listen to the spaces between the instruments and/or vocals. Listen to the subtle delays or overlapping reverbs. Listen.
DON'T stop songs and rewind and review parts, listen to songs in their entirety. Every now and then throw one of your mixes up for a couple of minutes... just a couple. If you're new and learning they will suck by comparison. Even the ones you and your friends though were pretty good.
What's the point of all this?
You have to become accustomed to hearing things "right". You have to build a frame of reference so that when you mix your music you'll know when something sounds wrong (frequency balance wise or tone wise or space wise) in your room with your speakers in your genre(s). Give it a few weeks / months and compare your mixes to the previous ones, I'll bet they'll sound better.
Then go back and re-read the "Mixing Secrets" post and try to apply some of the tips. Your ears will hopefully be ready to fully appreciate some of the subtle differences they might make.
One other tip... something I do that helped my mixes GREATLY...
I mix first thing in the morning while my ears are their very best. I intentionally schedule my mixes for early morning. It helped a LOT. Honestly, if you want to do your best why not use your ears when they are their best? Unless you stayed up until 4am smoking dope and drinking you should be physically, mentally and aurally at your very best about an hour after you wake up. As you get better it won't matter as much but you still have to prepare to mix by RESTING YOUR EARS. Mix at 7pm? Turn off the TV at 5 and read a book or something.
Here's one other important thing I learned a long time ago...
Never turn a EQ knob or patch in a comp or anything unless you have a specific clearly identifyable purpose. Inexperienced mixers tend to EQ way too much. You have to train yourself to be disciplined enough to analyze WHAT you need to do (by listening critically), and then deciding how to approach that and ONLY that.
This is why the tip from the "secrets" post about doing a dry mix with no EQ and living with it for a day or two is such a good idea. It gives you time to analyze WHAT may be needed if you're not sure. It also gives you time for a fresh listen and new perspective BEFORE you make those critical decisions.
When you do that (listen in the car AND boombox AND home stereo AND ipod if you can) take notes and later try to do only the things you noted and leave the rest alone. Eventually you'll hear all those things earlier and better.
Finally...
NEVER stop listening. Good mix engineers will sit down and listen to their favorite albums on the home stereo and analyze every nuance and make mental notes. Also ... update and refresh your frame of reference WHILE you mix. Rip some of those reference CD's and use something close to reference while you mix. Eventually you won't need them but for now they will make a HUGE difference. I sometimes will play 30sec to a minute of a similar commercial song 3-4-5 times or more during a particulary dense or difficult mix to compare to what I think I hear. You can't be afraid to do that, it helps.
As time goes by you'll need less and less of that though. This post went longer than I intended, I hope it helps somebody.
Last edited:
I originally wasn't going to say anything, but I've definately noticed something from Chessrock that slightly bothers me:
Chessrock originally wrote:
"For someone who has lived under a rock and has never cracked open a book or read a single magazine article that will basically say the exact same things. I guess it's just kind of useful / convenient to have all the "mixing 101 for dummies" stuff gathered together in one post."
Let's disect this part of his post for a second, to see just exactly WHO he insults in his posts...(mind you this is just the tip of the iceburg of his post)
"For someone who has lived under a rock and has never cracked open a book or read a single magazine article that will basically say the exact same things."
So apparently all newbs are rock-dwelling retards who can't tell their own heads from their asses, right?
You also insulted the validity/credibility of FV's post. Like he's simply "regurgitating" commonly seen things. Well if he is, I sure haven't seen/read it, and I do QUITE a bit of reading/researching about mixing/audio/etc.
"I guess it's just kind of useful / convenient to have all the "mixing 101 for dummies" stuff gathered together in one post."
You guess? It's passive comments like that that are causing people to get up your ass about it. Not only did you insult new people to the scene by insulting their intelligence, you also insulted the person who was trying to inform them. Also the whole "mixing for dummies" comment really puts the proverbial icing on the cake as well.
Wow, you sure are one complex creature... Is there any end to your smug, condescending, self-righteous attitude?
Then again, I have my nice ol' rock to crawl back under.... See ya in a few decades!
-Joel
P.S. Negative rep doesn't phase me anymore. Piss and whine all you want!
Chessrock originally wrote:
"For someone who has lived under a rock and has never cracked open a book or read a single magazine article that will basically say the exact same things. I guess it's just kind of useful / convenient to have all the "mixing 101 for dummies" stuff gathered together in one post."
Let's disect this part of his post for a second, to see just exactly WHO he insults in his posts...(mind you this is just the tip of the iceburg of his post)
"For someone who has lived under a rock and has never cracked open a book or read a single magazine article that will basically say the exact same things."
So apparently all newbs are rock-dwelling retards who can't tell their own heads from their asses, right?
You also insulted the validity/credibility of FV's post. Like he's simply "regurgitating" commonly seen things. Well if he is, I sure haven't seen/read it, and I do QUITE a bit of reading/researching about mixing/audio/etc.
"I guess it's just kind of useful / convenient to have all the "mixing 101 for dummies" stuff gathered together in one post."
You guess? It's passive comments like that that are causing people to get up your ass about it. Not only did you insult new people to the scene by insulting their intelligence, you also insulted the person who was trying to inform them. Also the whole "mixing for dummies" comment really puts the proverbial icing on the cake as well.
Wow, you sure are one complex creature... Is there any end to your smug, condescending, self-righteous attitude?
Then again, I have my nice ol' rock to crawl back under.... See ya in a few decades!
-Joel
P.S. Negative rep doesn't phase me anymore. Piss and whine all you want!
snow lizard
Dedicated Slacker
I think Mr. Van's "secrets" are great for sparking intrest in the craft, even though it spans a lot of sub-topics that could be taken into much greater depth. I guess the upside is that it's sort of comprehensive for a starter approach.
Great read, Mr. Van.
sl
Great read, Mr. Van.
sl
snow lizard
Dedicated Slacker
jrhager84 said:
I would have used the word "bullshit" instead of "attitude", but I guess it's not worth arguing semantics on such a minor scale. Your post raises a lot of interesting points.
sl
I just don't understand why he has to be so bitter... especially when the post's ONLY purpose/intent is to spark interest and promote learning... What the hell is so wrong with that???
Obviously there can only be SO much information on a thread before it becomes a short story, or even moreso a novel. I think FV's thread was to point newbs in the right direction, and get them asking themselves questions that they would end up researching the answers to....
Obviously there can only be SO much information on a thread before it becomes a short story, or even moreso a novel. I think FV's thread was to point newbs in the right direction, and get them asking themselves questions that they would end up researching the answers to....
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
Thank you Ed for taking the time to share your perspective. It's a great working tool in helping out people to get started. It gives both an in depth review and touches on the not so obvious basics for setting up a studio. Keep experimenting, ya gotta love it!
While it is a fun but long read, there are a lot of things in it I don't necessarily agree with. But that is my problem I guess
My advice (not that you guys want to hear it... I'm gonna give it anyways) see the article as one possible approach, use it as a "yeah, this can work too" method.
BTW, one point I absolutely disagree with is the 85 dB monitoring. You are not mixing for film, buddy
Again, to each his/her own. I like to mix at a very quiet volume, and sometimes I will switch from nearfields to the mains to get an idea on what is down there. I will also vary the volume on a regular basis, but really loud... maybe a couple of seconds. At 41 I still have pretty good hearing.
Thanks for letting me vent
Cheers
Arthur
My advice (not that you guys want to hear it... I'm gonna give it anyways) see the article as one possible approach, use it as a "yeah, this can work too" method.
BTW, one point I absolutely disagree with is the 85 dB monitoring. You are not mixing for film, buddy
Again, to each his/her own. I like to mix at a very quiet volume, and sometimes I will switch from nearfields to the mains to get an idea on what is down there. I will also vary the volume on a regular basis, but really loud... maybe a couple of seconds. At 41 I still have pretty good hearing.
Thanks for letting me vent
Cheers
Arthur
iqi616
Yet another Mike
Very true. A lot of people just don't seem to be able to hear the difference between the frequency balance of a commercial release compared to their own mixes. Vocals are particularly prone to being bass-heavy and lacking air and the nasty presence peak on their cheapy LDC makes them think the vocal is present and bright when it's simply harsh and hollow.The Audio Cave said:
This helps prevent the situation where you mix to 2 a.m. and listen again first thing the next morning and wonder just what the hell you thought you were hearing the night before.The Audio Cave said:
Yep, you have to train yourself to keep your hands off the equipment until you know what you want to achieve.The Audio Cave said:
I think you will always need to repeatedly compare to your references while working on your mix. It's so easy to let your ears become accustomed to what they are hearing and not realizing that the EQ and levels are getting more and more askew. This is a natural part of the automatic volume and EQ control built-in to our hearing and we need to recalibrate frequently; especially when working on a tricky EQ problem. A quick listen to your reference music will snap your ears back to what they should be hearing. It doesn't even have to be a reference from a similar genre to do this. I have my loudness-adjusted reference CD running continuously in the player and I don't usually care which track it's playing at the moment I switch to it, the ear-reset still works.The Audio Cave said:
jrhager84 said:
Just the ones who post here.
That's because you've living under a rock, and you probably don't read good magazines like Tapeop, which you should by the way. Just a tip.
If you've read anything from Fordvan, you'd realize that he's basically made one halfway usable post that a bunch of dumbasses have fawned over through the years and have hailed him as some sort of audio God as a result.
Since then, he has been cluttering up our forum with about 20 times the condescention and self-righteousness that I could ever hope to display in a lifetime. And when people call him out on it, or if he just doesn't feel loved enough, he pulls the one good thread he's ever made and points to it as if it is supposed to vindicate him and everyone is supposed to give him a cookie. "Remember? I made one good post 6 years ago. Love me! I'm smart and I'm good!"
And I'm calling bullshit on it, because it's not representative at all of who he is, or what he contributes to the forum. And on the same train of thought, the title of the post totally misrepresents the content. There are no "secrets" he's conveying.
It's a begginers guide to mixing and no more. High-pass guitars at 200 hz -- big secret there. Avoid drastic boosts and cuts, less is more ... etc. etc. etc. Do you even read any of the threads here? ?
I don't leave neg rep any more. I don't even read my own reps to be honest with you. It's kind of a silly little game that some people seem to get hung up over for some reason -- probably because they're simpletons. If I want to get someone's goat, I'll post a positive rep to someone else under their name ... usually making suggestive homo comments ("I love your post you hunk of sexy manhood, you. Kisses, Jrhager84), but that's about as far as I'll go with it.
.
choctaw
Tribal Member
It's about recording knowledge....that why we are here.
Willis.......you are so right there are TOO may posts that grunt or grown or just put in a silly face or call someone a butthead and the like. This say's nothing, and it takes up bandwidth. Just because someone has 20K or 30K posts does not mean they have said anything constructive. Keep it simple and about recording info and we all will learn, which is what this forum is supposed to be about.
ez_willis said:
Willis.......you are so right there are TOO may posts that grunt or grown or just put in a silly face or call someone a butthead and the like. This say's nothing, and it takes up bandwidth. Just because someone has 20K or 30K posts does not mean they have said anything constructive. Keep it simple and about recording info and we all will learn, which is what this forum is supposed to be about.
