I went to a studio and now I'm determined

[rocknrollstar]

Well I went to an upmarket studio, got a recording done and whilst it sounds "nice" - little verb, very smooth - at first I liked it - now I hate it. No disrespect to said studio or producer, but I want live and filthy. I think recording guitar and voice seperate lost some of the energy of the performance. Various people I've talked to think the same, however this is NOT an attack at the producer (and I am actually returning to him for other genres of music) it's just in this particular instance, it doesn't fit (and yes I did ask to do both guitar and voice together)


I want to record acoustic songs, I insist on singing and playing at the same time - I want a performance. I despise chorus and reverb anywhere near my guitar.


For information, this to me would be an ideal production to follow: Bob Dylan - You're No Good - YouTube


At the moment, I have a Large Diaphragm Condenser (Audio Technica AT2020) and a Small condenser (Rode m3). I record onto a Scarlett 2i4, untreated room, using Ableton.

Mics I have but don't use would also be a Samson Co1, Samson co2 and a Shure PG57.

Any thoughts where I go from here? Can only record 2 mics at once due to Scarlett.

 

[MrWrenchey]

You know, it's kinda your responsibility to tell the engineer if there's something you don't or do want on a track; preferably before you start tracking. Otherwise, they're going to do what they're most familiar with people wanting and go with that.

Granted, if you told him and he didn't listen, I don't blame you for not being too fond of it. xD

Honestly, if you're just looking to start recording from there and you want to do singing/playing at the same time, just throw the AT2020 in front of your mouth and the m3 on the acoustic where it sounds best. Hit record, and boom, you've got something live and filthy. =]

(I can't really reference the track you posted because it gives me an error, so aside from the descriptive words you gave me, that's all I got).

 

[rocknrollstar]

You know, it's kinda your responsibility to tell the engineer if there's something you don't or do want on a track; preferably before you start tracking. Otherwise, they're going to do what they're most familiar with people wanting and go with that.

Granted, if you told him and he didn't listen, I don't blame you for not being too fond of it. xD

Honestly, if you're just looking to start recording from there and you want to do singing/playing at the same time, just throw the AT2020 in front of your mouth and the m3 on the acoustic where it sounds best. Hit record, and boom, you've got something live and filthy. =]

(I can't really reference the track you posted because it gives me an error, so aside from the descriptive words you gave me, that's all I got).

Well since I'm not an engineer I wasn't sure of the correct terms, but I did state I didn't want it clean, to sound as if it was done in a studio and I wanted a live, intimate feeling. I also mentioned some other bands/artists I admire and gave cds as reference points.


The track in question was Bob Dylan - You're No Good.


Any Dylan song where it's guitar, voice and no other instruments is a good starting point actually. I have tried what you recommended previously but panning is an issue.

 

[MrWrenchey]

Any Dylan song where it's guitar, voice and no other instruments is a good starting point actually. I have tried what you recommended previously but panning is an issue.

Alright, I'll check it out real quick.

Okay, honestly, it sounds pretty much like what I told you. Just throw a mic on vox and acoustic and you're set. The only thing I notice panning wise is that the vocals and harmonica are just completely left and the guitar is completely right. Which I'm pretty sure was a popular style of panning back in these days, but nowadays, it'd be more popular to record the acoustic guitar in stereo by either tracking it twice with one microphone, or using two mics on the acoustic at the same time and panning them L/R.

The issue with the two mics on the acoustic scenario is that you only have two inputs with your current interface, so you can only record guitar and vocals separately, which you stated you don't want to do. So either you'd have to do the double tracking style, or upgrade the interface and possibly invest in one more nice microphone for that acoustic.

Out of curiosity, what acoustic guitar are you using? Because that's also a big factor commonly overlooked in home recording. You can't make a $300 Yamaha sound like a $3,000 Taylor or Martin. =]

 

[rocknrollstar]

Alright, I'll check it out real quick.

Okay, honestly, it sounds pretty much like what I told you. Just throw a mic on vox and acoustic and you're set. The only thing I notice panning wise is that the vocals and harmonica are just completely left and the guitar is completely right. Which I'm pretty sure was a popular style of panning back in these days, but nowadays, it'd be more popular to record the acoustic guitar in stereo by either tracking it twice with one microphone, or using two mics on the acoustic at the same time and panning them L/R.

The issue with the two mics on the acoustic scenario is that you only have two inputs with your current interface, so you can only record guitar and vocals separately, which you stated you don't want to do. So either you'd have to do the double tracking style, or upgrade the interface and possibly invest in one more nice microphone for that acoustic.

Out of curiosity, what acoustic guitar are you using? Because that's also a big factor commonly overlooked in home recording. You can't make a $300 Yamaha sound like a $3,000 Taylor or Martin. =]

Is there any specific mics which isolate sounds better? I've heard a lot of people say a ribbon mic and a ldc for recording guitar and vocals at the same time?


Double-tracking always has that chorus-y sound on acoustic guitar though, which I can't stand. I don't mind if I have to buy more equipment if it gets me something to work with. Obviously I'd prefer not to, but needs must.


I'm using a £500 Yamaha, however I'm willing to bet the records I listen to aren't all taylors or martins.


e.g. - Beck - Nightmare Hippy Girl - YouTube <<<that's a "good" acoustic tone in my mind, and I'm certain it wasn't that expensive of an acoustic guitar.

 

[MrWrenchey]

Double-tracking always has that chorus-y sound on acoustic guitar though, which I can't stand. I don't mind if I have to buy more equipment if it gets me something to work with. Obviously I'd prefer not to, but needs must.

It's only going to have that chorus-y sound if you can't play your guitar tight enough with the other track, and even then it's going to be panned hard L/R, so you won't be able to hear any sort of chorusing unless it's summed to mono.

The ribbon/LDC is actually what I used last time to record a guy's acoustic/vocal performance. He was a little different of you though, he liked subtle reverb and chorus on his guitar and vocals. We used a Royer R121 for the acoustic and a Miktek CV4 for his vocals, and honestly, if you can just get the sound you want from the get go without needing a bunch of EQ or anything afterwards (all the EQ I really needed on this guy's track was some low end roll off on the vocals and guitars), you don't need to worry TERRIBLY about isolation. But you know, the mics I used were cardioid on vocals which we angled so it wasn't going to pick up much guitar, and then the Royer is bi-directional (figure 8), and we just kind of placed that wherever the acoustic sounded best. Just try experimenting with what you have before buying $3,000 in mics though, because maybe you can what you want out of what you have. =]

Hahaha, oh, I know, I wasn't bashing Yamaha's or anything. I'm just saying if you have a cheap acoustic and you don't even think it sounds good, EQ ain't going to make it an instrument it isn't.

 

[rocknrollstar]

It's only going to have that chorus-y sound if you can't play your guitar tight enough with the other track, and even then it's going to be panned hard L/R, so you won't be able to hear any sort of chorusing unless it's summed to mono.

The ribbon/LDC is actually what I used last time to record a guy's acoustic/vocal performance. He was a little different of you though, he liked subtle reverb and chorus on his guitar and vocals. We used a Royer R121 for the acoustic and a Miktek CV4 for his vocals, and honestly, if you can just get the sound you want from the get go without needing a bunch of EQ or anything afterwards (all the EQ I really needed on this guy's track was some low end roll off on the vocals and guitars), you don't need to worry TERRIBLY about isolation. But you know, the mics I used were cardioid on vocals which we angled so it wasn't going to pick up much guitar, and then the Royer is bi-directional (figure 8), and we just kind of placed that wherever the acoustic sounded best. Just try experimenting with what you have before buying $3,000 in mics though, because maybe you can what you want out of what you have. =]

Hahaha, oh, I know, I wasn't bashing Yamaha's or anything. I'm just saying if you have a cheap acoustic and you don't even think it sounds good, EQ ain't going to make it an instrument it isn't.

Sorry about the newb-ish here - "summed to mono" - what do you mean exactly? I do record in mono...


I done a recent demo with the Rode M3 and a Shure PG57 (think it's an SM58 rip off?) anyway - did have a slight bleed, but nothing major so I'm going to heed your advice and go to death with this and try get what I want without buying more gear. I do agree though - the less post production I have to do the better - I try keep my computer interference to a minimum haha


No I get you man, I never took it as an insult - also if I did have the cash I'd like one of those 3/4 size Martins, they're cool



But yeah, I'll solider on. Also just seen this:


http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-rev...iewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending


Just curious, done a bit of reading on various sites and for the price I've never seen it rated below 3.5 out of 5. Think I'll gamble on it, quite like a dynamic on an acoustic strangely enough.

 

[mjbphotos]

The Shure PG57 is a low budget live-use mic.
OMG, don't waste even $15 on a Pyle-Pro mic or any of their equipment. You've got mics, try using them different ways.

Recording vocals and acoustic at the same time you are never going to get complete isolation, but not sure why you mention panning at all - are you trying to do like the early Dylan with vocals on one side and guitar on the other? 'Summing to mono' means, basically, having exactly the same thing coming out of the left and right speakers. In a DAW, there are 'Mono/Stereo' buttons, or you can just move the pan slider/knob to the center on all tracks.

 

[Btyre2013]

no sympathy for you whatsoever, you should of told the engineer whilst in the tracking stage or before you record anything, how can you expect the engineer to know you want a raw a live sound without actually telling them? you can't blame the engineer when it's entirely your own fault. If you want raw and live, then why not just record an actual live performance and put it through a real tape machine or cassette tape set to oversaturate?

 

[rocknrollstar]

no sympathy for you whatsoever, you should of told the engineer whilst in the tracking stage or before you record anything, how can you expect the engineer to know you want a raw a live sound without actually telling them? you can't blame the engineer when it's entirely your own fault. If you want raw and live, then why not just record an actual live performance and put it through a real tape machine or cassette tape set to oversaturate?

Actually if you read post #3 of this thread you will see I did mention all of this before recording took place.

The Shure PG57 is a low budget live-use mic.
OMG, don't waste even $15 on a Pyle-Pro mic or any of their equipment. You've got mics, try using them different ways.

Recording vocals and acoustic at the same time you are never going to get complete isolation, but not sure why you mention panning at all - are you trying to do like the early Dylan with vocals on one side and guitar on the other? 'Summing to mono' means, basically, having exactly the same thing coming out of the left and right speakers. In a DAW, there are 'Mono/Stereo' buttons, or you can just move the pan slider/knob to the center on all tracks.

I mention panning because if guitar and vocals are centre it tends to sound muddy and the occupy some of the same frequencies.

I'm not aiming for that Dylan panning in particular (although I do quite like it) but usually when I listen to mixes the guitar tends to be either a little more left or right and when it comes to just guitar and voice, I'm unsure how to pan it. If I have one guitar, I can't (in my mind) have vocals central, as it will sound off balance.

 

[mjbphotos]

I mention panning because if guitar and vocals are centre it tends to sound muddy and the occupy some of the same frequencies.

I'm not aiming for that Dylan panning in particular (although I do quite like it) but usually when I listen to mixes the guitar tends to be either a little more left or right and when it comes to just guitar and voice, I'm unsure how to pan it. If I have one guitar, I can't (in my mind) have vocals central, as it will sound off balance.

Muddy/same frequencies - this is when you use selective EQ (usually on the guitar). So pan the guitar 20% left and the vocals 20% right (or any other numbers - experiment!) and see how it sounds. There'll be enough bleed of guitar to the vocal mic that it really won't be a problem anyway.

 

[ocnor]

The obvious solution is to stop being so anal and just record the guitar and vocal separately. Use the tools that you have correctly and stop trying to pound a nail with a screwdriver.

 

[rocknrollstar]

The obvious solution is to stop being so anal and just record the guitar and vocal separately. Use the tools that you have correctly and stop trying to pound a nail with a screwdriver.

What exactly am I doing incorrectly? Wanting to record guitar and voice at the same time isn't incorrect, it's a preference. Some songs just would not work being done separately e.g. alot of folk, Nick Drake etc

Muddy/same frequencies - this is when you use selective EQ (usually on the guitar). So pan the guitar 20% left and the vocals 20% right (or any other numbers - experiment!) and see how it sounds. There'll be enough bleed of guitar to the vocal mic that it really won't be a problem anyway.

I never really thought of the last part. Cool - I've got Sunday off to experiment and try some of this out. Feeling better about things - done a quick take using the PG57 for vocals and the Rode M3 for guitar and there was minimum bleed, but caught a performance. Hopefully be able to build upon this.


Thanks for the response, and to the everlasting patience of this community in general

 

[ocnor]

Well I went to an upmarket studio, got a recording done and whilst it sounds "nice" - little verb, very smooth - at first I liked it - now I hate it. No disrespect to said studio or producer, but I want live and filthy.

This whole scenario sounds kind of phony to me. Prove me wrong by posting this supposed recording done in an "upmarket studio". If I'm wrong then I'll apologize for being sceptical. If you don't post the recording then we can all assume that it never existed.

 

[rocknrollstar]

This whole scenario sounds kind of phony to me. Prove me wrong by posting this supposed recording done in an "upmarket studio". If I'm wrong then I'll apologize for being sceptical. If you don't post the recording then we can all assume that it never existed.

What possible benefit is there for me to lie to a bunch of strangers on the internet?

Nonetheless, both mp3s attached.

I'd like to just clarify - the studio sound isn't for me, but I am not saying in any way, shape or form that the engineer did not know what he was doing. A few people I know who write music actually asked for his details and I've passed them on. I think he can record, and get a sound, but in this instance the sound didn't suit me.